episode-10-grieving-as-a-man

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Taylor Way Talks

10 - Jason Clawson: Grieving as a Man

Dawn Taylor|9/26/2022

Content Warning: Loss, Cancer, Loss of spouse.


Dawn Taylor welcomes Jason Clawson, therapist and co-founder of Giving Sunshine, to the show to talk intimately about grief. Jason has experienced deep personal grief and he shares what that journey was like, how hard expressing emotion was, and what he needed in a support system.


Jason Clawson lost his wife to cancer just when he thought his life was at a great place. He was left to parent their two boys on his own while struggling with his own deep grief in secret. He bottled up his suffering so he could “mask up” and be strong for everyone around him. But that wasn’t sustainable and Jason describes how he eventually broke down and asked for the help he needed. 


Dawn and Jason talk very openly about the grief associated with the loss of a spouse or loved one and Jason describes how there is an emotional disconnect for grieving men especially. Men are expected to be tough and not show vulnerability. But in this conversation Jason shares how he asked for help, who showed up for him, how they showed up, and then he shares advice on what to say and do to support someone in your life who is grieving. 


About Jason Clawson:


Jason Clawson is Therapist, Widower, and Father.


Shortly after experiencing the death of his third child, Jason Clawson and his wife discovered she had stage 4 colon cancer. After fighting for 9 months, he and his 2 boys had to say goodbye to her. Throughout all of this pain and heartache, it became obvious Jason had many people around him who cared about him but did not know how to give him the support he so desperately needed. This is when his friend Wyatt approached him and asked if he wanted to join in building a hope kit that would help those who are suffering progress through their own personal grieving cycle.


Throughout 13 years of therapy, Jason has discovered what he calls the “Support Vacuum”. When those who are struggling need the most support, those who would become their support are so scared of making things worse than they already are, they end up doing nothing. Imagine that, when someone is needed most, they disappear. But it makes sense, there are no training grounds on how to be a good support system to those who are struggling. That is until now. The Hope Kit is designed to help the person going through grief branch out and build that support around them with minimal effort.


Resources Mentioned in This Episode:



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Dawn Taylor - The Taylor Way: website | facebook | instagram | linkedin

Jason Clawson - Giving Sunshine: website | instagram | email | facebook | linkedin | jason’s facebook


Giveaway Link:


End Note:


From Jason: “In January 2022. I married my sweetheart Kirsten. We both have lost a spouse to cancer, and now get to share our stories of hope, happiness and joy after tragedy with others. We are also excited to announce that we are going to have a baby GIRL at the end of December. This truly a miracle because my wife was told she would never have kids, as well as me and my previous wife struggled with getting pregnant, and had to do in vitro fertilization to have children. Can't wait to squeeze and kiss our little girl soon.”

Transcript:



Dawn Taylor: [00:00:09] Hey, hey, hey. Welcome to the Taylor Talks podcast. Oh, do I have a treat for you today. Hey, so this podcast, I got to spend an hour with the incredible Jason Clawson. If you have not heard of this guy, for starters, you need to check out the show notes because there is an image of him balancing a ladder on his chin. Yes, you heard that right. But he's also had a really, really crazy, incredible life. So to hear his story, you're going to have to listen. But we're going to dive into masculinity around grief. So the masks that we put on around being a man, the masks of grieving and how to actually create a system around you to help in those situations, but also how damaging that can be. He has an incredible business. He helps other people with grieving. There's just so many good things in this, and I cannot wait for you to hear it. Please check out the show notes for more information and to figure out how to get ahold of him. We'll see you on the show in a sec.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:01:17] So welcome to the show, Jason. So excited to have you here today. So topic of the day: Asking for help in grief but from a man's perspective. When you're taught right, you're taught to just be strong, not ask for help. Don't be vulnerable. Come on, Jason. What do you mean you're asking for help?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:01:39] It's putting on the mask of masculinity and not let anybody see what is actually going in on your heart and on the inside. And it's just like, I'm good. I'm fine. When people would ask, like, How are you doing, Jason? Or How you holding up? It was a common response to just say, I'm good, I'm doing it. Because if I showed weakness to my boys, they would be worried and concerned. Or if anybody else saw weakness or that I'm breaking down, then they would worry. So I didn't want to put extra pressure on anybody else from just saying life sucks, like I can't take it anymore. I'm struggling to get out of bed, I'm struggling to brush my teeth. I'm struggling to to take a shower. I didn't want anybody to know because then everybody else was going to be worried about me, even though I was crumbling inside.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:02:34] So let's backtrack for the listeners. Tell us a bit about your story.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:02:38] My story starts four years ago, life was going as good as I hope for, where I was a director of a recovery program as a clinical therapist. My wife had just lost 100 pounds. My boys are thriving in school and I was building a home that we've looked forward to. And in a matter of about a month, we, my wife discovers a lump in her stomach and she brought up some some concerns. We gave it a week to kind of let it play out. But after this week, her lump in her stomach grew. And then we found ourselves, through doctors and tests at the hospital, having an exploratory surgery to find out what was going on. So it was like, okay, let's hurry up and take care of this part of our life because we have to get back to the way life was going.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:03:32] The amazing part.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:03:34] Yeah. This is what we worked really hard for and we pictured this life that we're supposed to live. And then I remember the doctor walking in after surgery and looking me right in the eyes and saying, Jason, I'm so sorry. Your wife has stage four colon cancer. And in a moment like that, I just started to cry and started to weep. My sister was there, my wife's best friend, her parents were there. And I just said, How could this happen? We are trying to help people. We are trying to do so much good. And why does this have to happen to me right now? How dare God do this to us right now? This is not supposed to be my life. And I was angry and I was upset. And then I remember going into the recovery room with my wife and the doctor comes in and says, my wife wakes up and says, this is the diagnosis. And again, I just begin to get angry and upset, like, how could this happen? And then I begin to have so many questions. And the doctor left the room. But I ran after the doctor. Doctor? Doctor, How are we going to pay for this? How do you tell your kids? What kind of treatment? How long does she have to live? And I'm just peppering her because I didn't know what to do except ask questions. And then the doctor calmed me down, looked me right in the eyes, and Dawn, this is just hard. What the doctor could have said at this moment, said, Jason, you'll be okay. But cancer has a way of enhancing your life. And I just wanted to say, I don't want, I don't want my life to be enhanced. I want to go back to my life I was living and I felt like a traumatic event happening in that moment where life was time-stamped in my brain. And when I can recall that, I can remember how it felt, what was going, all the details and time-stamped of the doctor saying that. And I held on to that and it just built in me and anger and all these emotions just begin to build because of that moment.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:05:55] Absolutely.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:05:56] I was angry at the doctor, I was angry at God. I was angry at people that weren't helping me. I began as a male, I began to just, again, put on this hard mask and say, we're going to fight it. We're going to do all we can to fight back and we're going to beat this. And I just remember being scared to death and I'm getting emotional.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:06:21] It's okay.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:06:22] I just remember... like I would I would take care of everybody. I would take care of my wife, make sure her needs are taken care of. I take care of my boys.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:06:32] How many kids did you have or do you have?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:06:34] Two boys. And I remember when everybody was asleep, I would just sit there and sob and just say, This is not fair, this is so hard. And I would cry at night. I would fall asleep over exhaustion, and then I would get up before everybody else, wipe away the tears because I have to be strong, and put back on my mask and say, okay, we're going to fight this. But little did everybody know Jason was struggling and at times I was too prideful to just say, I can't do this anymore. This is not fair because people expect it. And what's hard as a caregiver is people expect you to be the strongest person in the room.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:07:25] Isn't that amazing? It's so true. I have been in that position and I'm always like, Yeah, I'm strong, but I'm so weak at the same time.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:07:37] But it's like everybody gives all the love and attention to the person going through it. And you're just sitting over... it's a lonely, being a caregiver is a lonely spot because nobody - and I just challenge anybody listening to this - check on the caregiver, check on the caregivers and turn to them and say, How are you doing? Take them one on one, build them up so that they can build up the other person. This is something I learned that is so valuable. And every time that I come across someone that's suffering and someone that's taking care of, I immediately go to the caregiver. And I just said, How are you doing? What do you need? And that's my go-to because I know everybody else is helping that other person. And my eyes and the way I feel is I need to go take care of the caregiver first and then go take care of the other person, because the caregiver is that lonely spot where they're putting on a mask and they're pretending it's okay, but it's not okay.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:08:43] No, not at all. So continue your story. Where did it go from there?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:08:48] So we were given 2 to 3 years to life expectancy. And as we fought back and did everything the doctor asked, nothing began to get better. Nothing. We'd do a scan and we'd do treatments and there was no improvement. So after nine months, we were saying goodbye to my wife at the funeral and trying to figure out how to do life now as a hybrid parent. I'm supposed to be a father. I'm supposed to have mother qualities and pick up those extra pieces. And funerals are great because everybody rallies around. But the hardest part is when the funeral, when everybody goes away, and the reality of hard life began to lock in. And I noticed that things that my wife did, I couldn't provide because I wasn't my wife and my boys were struggling and one of them would fight back and yell. The other one would go internal. So I'm just like, Oh, how do I help? And I begin to realize how hard life was and silently suffering every day and again crying. And then my boss calls me and says, We need you back to work. There's people that are struggling and people need help. And I'm just like, So again, I put on--

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:10:19] Pause for a second. How long? Got to love work. How long after your wife's funeral were you getting this phone call?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:10:29] I was back to work in eight days, nine days.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:10:33] Are you serious?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:10:35] Yeah. And... I mean... I was--

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:10:38] -- as a therapist.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:10:40] Yeah, It felt like I had to go back because they needed me. But I wasn't done, and I was just in this tough, tough spot. And so, again, I put on that mask and I made sure my boys were taken care of. And I'd go work and and going through the hardest thing of your life and then sitting in a therapy session where I'm dealing with individuals, at this time I was working at a treatment program for adolescent girls. And there's sexual trauma, there's rape, there's there's some heavy, heavy stuff.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:11:18] So not a light job to go back to.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:11:21] No. And I just... I would just sit there and at times, this is... they would complain about stupid stuff and I'd just be like, You want to complain? Let me share you a little bit about my life. But I didn't. I just, I did the best I can to help them in in their most difficult spots of their life. It was hard. And I did this for, I mean, I did this for nine months. And again, putting on that mask of masculinity, I'm supposed to be strong. And then finally, after nine months, I just said, I can't do this anymore. My kids are suffering. I remember coming home and my son pulls me aside - he's about 13 at this time - and he looks at me in the eye and goes, Dad, you come home angry every day. And I just, I went in my room and I began to weep because I didn't want my kids to suffer. And again, I was trying the best I could to manage my life and try to get by. But it was so heavy and so hard. And I was like, I just want someone to help my kids. I want someone to help me. And I was getting to a breaking point and finally I took my lunch break and I remember getting out my phone and I remember making a message to 14 people in my neighborhood and my church group, people in my family, and I said, I need help. Can you meet me at my house tonight? I want to open up my heart and tell you how I'm feeling. And I sent it and a sense of relief came over me because I threw it out there.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:13:12] But will they show up?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:13:13] Exactly. That's what I thought. Who's going to show up? An amazing thing happen is everybody that I texted showed up, and I just felt extremely blessed. And I remember sitting in my living room and just pouring out my heart. And I call this my healing team because I finally gave people permission to help me.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:13:39] Hey, pause really quick there. Pause really fast there. You gave people permission to help?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:13:46] Yeah.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:13:47] And I think, I just want to pause on that for a second because that is so powerful. Because I think that in those times when we are broken and we are alone and we are devastated and we're not holding it together and our masks are crumbling and falling off and life around us is falling apart, I'm known as the get shit done, girl. I'm known as the girl who. Right? I walk into a room and I protect and I save and I rescue and I do all those things. In trauma in my family's lives and all those things. Right? But I don't know how to ask for help. And so for people hearing this that are like Jason and myself who don't know how to ask for help, when you ask the caregiver how they're doing and they say, I'm good, you know, I'm fine, you know, I'm getting through this. Don't just take that at face value.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:14:41] Yeah.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:14:42] Dig way deeper. Be like, No, no, no, no, you're not. What's really going on?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:14:47] Sit in the emotion with them.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:14:50] Yes. So keep going. So you invited 14 people, and that night...

 

Jason Clawson: [00:14:54] I just poured out my heart and, again, giving them permission. Because when you go through a traumatic event or loss or losing a loved one, there's so many people in our culture that don't know how to help. They're afraid to say things. They don't want to rock the boat. They don't want to speak the person's name.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:15:15] Oh, that's the worst.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:15:17] They just, they go into a support vacuum where they want to do something, but they don't do anything. Again, I said I gave them permission to help me. And once I open up my heart, then they said, okay, I know how Jason is feeling and I know how to help them. So that's why it was important for me to finally take off my mask and say, This is how, this is what's going on. And in that moment, these guys gave me feedback on what was going on, what they're experiencing. Together we begin to talk about how to help each other. And another amazing thing happened is in that healing team, we created a captain of my team, and whenever things would get really heavy or hard, all I would have to do is text one health word to my captain, and the captain would send out a text to everybody in my group. And what was amazing in that group is we made assignments for people of what to do. So someone is in charge of the laundry, my parents were in charge of my laundry.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:16:23] That's awesome.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:16:24] Someone was in charge of taking my kids. Someone was in charge of bringing me food, doing yard work, house clean. So when they get that word help, when it got as heavy as it ever could, if I send out one word, I can send out one word. Then the troops would come in.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:16:42] They all just came in.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:16:43] And they would pick me up until I became strong enough to take some of those things back and carry me through. Until I said, I can do my laundry.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:16:55] Mom and Dad, you can stay home.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:16:57] Let's hold off on the meals. They're starting to back up. But this gave me power and permission to be able to move forward. And as hard, as difficult as it got, all I could do is just send one text and people would kind of build me up. And that was extremely empowering to be able to do this. And then I began to be, people would ask hard questions or ask how I'm really doing, and it began to allow myself to heal from the inside out. And I wasn't trying to hold on to my emotions and just trying to wait out grief, because you can't wait out grief. You can't wait out trauma. You can't wait out those emotions. So. And one thing I also learned was the opposite of grieving, the opposite of depression, the opposite of addiction in work I've done, is connection. And I realize how powerful connecting with people that are there and wanting to help. But again, I'm not going to connect with just anybody. Again, I would go to church, I would show up and people would say, Hey, if there's, how you doing?

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:18:10] If you need anything, let me know. You know that line from church?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:18:16] Yeah. I knew the right words to say to push on the people that weren't interested. But again, going back to what you said, Dawn, people that just sat in it just said, no, you're not, you're not doing very good, and sat in that moment where the tears could come out. And those are the people that I can invest in. Those are the people worth opening up my heart because I know they're going to take care of my heart or they're going to help me heal my heart.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:18:45] 100%.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:18:45] It's, again, it's finding the right people. That's that's hard, though.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:18:51] I was going to say that is very hard to find those people. When my mom passed away, that was a really hard one because, again, like I'm the girl who got the phone call that my mom and passed away at ten in the morning. And then I proceeded to do my boss's bookkeeping for his year end for the next 4 hours.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:19:13] Oh, wow.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:19:13] Because it had to get done. That's where I go. I go into that rock. I turn into a rock when trauma happens in my childhood or my life. And for me, it was always four months later. It's four months later that I fall apart because I have a natural go-to of take care of everybody around me, make sure everybody else is okay. When my mom passed away, when my dad walked away, when, you know, when I had a brain aneurysm and all these things happen, it was like, no, no, no, I got to take care of everybody else first, make sure everybody else is okay. Put on my rock face. And four months later, almost to the day after any and all traumas, is when I fall apart. That's my moment. And so I know for myself and for anyone listening, pay attention to what your patterns are when it comes to that, because I know mine is four months. So I've told friends over the years like I'm good now, I'm great in those first six weeks. I cry at night, I hold it together all day. I'm very efficient. Check on me in four months, because in four months I'm going to be a basket case and I'm going to be where most people are in week one.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:20:25] So true.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:20:26] Right?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:20:28] I've had people say, Well, how do you know you're doing better? Like, what are the, how do you know that you're showing up and doing better? And the best way that I found to describe this is when we first go through a traumatic event, all those emotions are like time-stamped and they're connected to emotions that come up. And what I found is at the very beginning when I lost my wife, I couldn't even speak her name without just crying or talking about the memories of things I would have. And I couldn't even get through like a sentence. And what I've noticed is over the years, as I've done my work, I've talked, I've incorporated my team, is the intensity of the emotion decreases. And that's how I know I'm doing better, because now I can talk about my wife openly. I can talk about her memories without breaking down for a couple of days. And again, there's times where I still get emotional and there's probably work that needs to be done, but the intensity of the emotion decreases.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:21:35] So much less.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:21:36] And think of like taking off the mask and letting these emotions out to people and sharing those. That's helped me heal in my intensity. And I'm doing less of falling apart. But that doesn't mean I'm not honoring my wife. It means I'm honoring her more because I'm talking about it and I'm talking the experience and I teach people and that gives back to me strength, because I'm connecting with them on a deeper level.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:22:08] Oh, totally. I have to ask, how are your boys doing?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:22:12] Today they are doing good. It's been an adventure for them. And again, they struggle in different ways. And I just remember saying, man, I don't want to be five years down the road and we are addressing these in therapy because as a therapist, I knew how that complex trauma and those emotions that are backed up and how they manifest itself. And I was like, we got to do something. And, and the thing that happened after the healing team is I remember, my life, I was operating, and my boys, off of sad and unhappy memories. We're her death, cancer. That's just all we are living and that's not sustainable. So after that team meeting, I said I want to create some happy and I want to reconnect with my kids. So I did a hard thing. I quit my job and I just said, I'm done. My family is more important to me than than just being stressed out. So I quit my job. And after that, I sat down at the kitchen table with my kids and I said, Boys, I quit my job. I want to make a bucket list with you. And I want to make some happy memories with you guys. And so we created a bucket list of things that we were able to do and accomplish. But I think the important part, too, is we involved other people into our scope that people could check on me, talk to my boys, and we're building our team and our community so that they could help us heal. So. And what was interesting is one of the things that we did is we created the lemonade stand, a lemonade stand, because we wanted to make these yellow sunshine buckets so that we could give to people and bring happiness to them.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:24:11] Oh, that's so fun.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:24:12] And because someone did that to us when we were going through treatment with my wife and it was so happy, it was a great time to remember. And again, my mind time-stamped my wife smiling, my boys laughing and getting along,and I was like, I want to do that. So with my boys is we begin to activate in our brain yellow things. So whenever we'd go to the store, we'd look for yellow things to go in the baskets. And this was so helpful for my boys because I began to train them to think about other people other than themselves. So they would go to the store and they'd be like, Oh, let's get that for the basket, let's get this. And it became such a motivating thing to help them. And they were thinking about how we can help people other than what's going on inside. And this began to help them. So we did a neighborhood lemonade stand. We raised 1500 dollars.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:25:10] That's quite the lemonade.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:25:12] Yeah, exactly. We took that money. We created 25 baskets. And our mission of helping and giving back was the right medicine for us to be able to be helpful. So we'd put these baskets together, we put it out on Facebook, and we begin to deliver them, and we begin to ask the hard questions to people that were going through hard times because we knew what to ask them. We knew what to say and how to say, you know, this sucks. Like there's no way around it. And my boys could speak to their kids, I could speak to the spouse. And it became a way of life, of helping people. And in that sense, we begin to heal because we begin to give of ourselves and help people heal as well. And it gave us an opportunity to tell our story and speak of those emotions. And we began to connect emotions to emotion, and we began to have deep, deep connections with these people. And some of the most amazing spiritual experiences about connecting people from trauma or from going through life-altering event was some of the most amazing experiences.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:26:33] Which is incredible. So one thing I want to touch on is when you had mentioned when the caregiver, they're the strong one, and they have to hold it all together and they have to deal with this. You were dealing with a whole different aspect of it as well and the fact that you were a therapist, you were the therapist to the room. So was there a judgment put on that? Was there an expectation on you in that way? Because I mean, you're trained, you're a therapist. You should be able to handle trauma in a different way or deal with this in a different way. I want you to talk to me about that experience.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:27:10] I love that question. You're right. I dealt with people with sexual trauma, with abuse, people grieving. And I can help people. I can help them out of that. But when it comes to me, I physically can't look in the mirror and talk me through that. So that was extremely hard and frustrating. But what I knew is I had the information and what I began to do is one of my biggest supports, he began to ask the right questions and it's like, How do I help you? So I begin to teach him what to say and how to help me. And that became such a great way of doing it. I could teach, but I couldn't help myself. So I began to teach him what to say, what to do. And that was a vulnerable moment because it was another, it was a male connecting with a male, which we don't. We would go to lunch weekly and he would sit across from me and he'd say, How you doing? And ask the harder questions. Or he would even say, Is that the right question to ask, Jason? Or What do you need? And I would teach him. And then on our next connection, he would ask those and follow up. And that was so helpful for me, probably more helpful than going into therapy and talking to a therapist. But what I was doing in that relationship is I was telling them what I needed and he was willing enough to follow up and help me through and walk that journey with me. And that was extremely helpful. Not everybody can do that. Not even my siblings. I come from a family with six other siblings and they were having a hard time showing up for me. So I had to go to someone that was willing and and right there with me, it was my neighbor at the time, and teach him how to help me. And thank Jesus for helping me, having someone to be able to sit in those emotions and wasn't running away. Just no matter what I said, he would just say, okay, let's do this tomorrow, Jason, let's get you out of that. And that was extremely healing. And the only way that that could have happened was for me to just be raw and authentic. And I think what I did was I sent out the feeler questions to see if he was the right person to sit in that. And they responded to it. And I was ready to unload when he responded to me.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:30:03] So are you willing to give us some examples of those feeler questions? Because I think there's an expectation on the people around us. It's like, I'm in an emergency situation right now, except we're all, it's like we're all in a movie and these people are all part of the movie. They're just all your, you know, your secondary characters. But sometimes those people aren't the ones that can help you in those moments. They aren't the ones that can be the support for you. And it's not everybody's thing. And so we have these expectations on our spouses, on our friends, and our families and our siblings, and our relatives, to be our rocks, to stand up for us, to step in and be in that situation. And they don't know how or they can't.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:30:46] Yeah.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:30:47] And so we do often have to reach outside of that. And I know sometimes in my life it's been the most random strangers or the most random people that have stepped in and been those people for me. It hasn't been the people you would think. It wasn't a sibling or it wasn't a close friend, there's some random guy on a committee with me for a community thing that will come over and sit and talk with me during a hard time or will take me out for coffee, or a random artist friend who I met at an art show. And we'd go and sit in a breakfast place and just talk. You never know who they're going to be, but what are some feeler questions that people could have, if you're willing to share, that they could put out there for like, Hey, how do I find this person?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:31:37] It's interesting you said that. As a side note, me and my support system, we've made these support cards for people to know what to ask them. So we'll get to that. But we, me and my support, we've created these deck of cards that people can use to ask those harder questions or ask those emotional questions. I think one thing about my support is, one thing with me is, he wasn't afraid to bring up my wife's name. That's not scary for them. So.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:32:17] Huge. That is so huge.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:32:20] Yeah. And when they can speak their name without hesitation, it's like, okay, you're not afraid to continue keeping that person alive in our life. And that's what someone that's lost, a spouse or someone they don't want that person's memory to be forgotten. So speaking their name is awesome medicine. And he's always asking that, he's like, Hey, Valerie's birthday's coming up. How are you going to honor her on her birthday? Like, and it's just so helpful. And I think also with this support person, why he asked emotional questions. He'll attach, How are you feeling? What is the hardest thing you're dealing with today? What would help you when you are having a difficult and down day? He would ask emotional questions, and in those moments you can't deflect those. You can't give a prepared answer, kind of like throwing a dart at you like, Oh, I have to answer that.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:33:24] You're like, Shoot, I have to just show up for that one.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:33:27] And it's questions that aren't one one word or one breath answers. It causes me to pause and think about those emotions. Those are so, so helpful. I'm trying to think of other good questions. Again, he's able to focus on the here and now and how and how I'm being present, and that's really helpful. Not like how was last week for it, because that's too big. It's like focusing on, like, what's your biggest struggle right now that you're, that continues to make you frustrated? Like in the moment questions so you get raw - kind of like this podcast - that's like asking them how they're feeling in the moment, not how they were last week or how'd that month go. Just nail them with, and just sit there and you got to be willing to ask and you got to be willing to sit in the emotion and not run and just be like, That sucks. And validate them. Man, that is so hard to deal with. But guess what? I'm here for you and I want to sit in your emotions with you. That means the world.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:34:35] I heard one of the top grief facilitators in the world is David Kessler, and he talked about the fact that after his son passed away, one of his friends just showed up and, like, parked in his driveway. And was like, I know you don't want him in your house kind of idea, but like, I'm here. And day after day after day after day, this guy would just show up and sit in his car in his driveway and be like, I'm here. I'm here if you need me. And he talks about how - I was listening to a thing with him the other day - and he was talking about how powerful that was. To just know someone was there. And I think so much of it is the awkward silence. People aren't... We're so afraid of our emotions. We're so afraid of feeling negative emotions. We are taught, and tell me if I'm wrong, but as a man, you're taught to be terrified of tears. Right? Because tears mean that either if there is a woman on the other side, things aren't good, right? She's crying. And now you have to figure out how to manage. Manage her. Right? Is this weird idea that's out there. Well, it's what we were taught from the patriarchy. Let's be honest.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:35:42] It's a weakness.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:35:43] But the tears are a weakness. All of these negative emotions are a weakness. And yet, really, they're our greatest strength.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:35:51] Yeah.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:35:52] Our greatest strength.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:35:52] I teach clients vulnerability invites vulnerability.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:36:00] Oh, it totally does.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:36:02] As soon as I begin to cry and let down my mask is the moment I begin to get happy and healthier and and walk my journey. As soon as I kept that mask on and not willing to share, it kept me stuck in the same place. And that just kept building emotions. It's like a pop bottle get shaken up, right? I wasn't letting out the fizz, but vulnerability invites vulnerability and that will invite the right people in, and the people that aren't ready or it makes them feel uncomfortable, they'll probably disappear because it's too hard for them. And they got their own stuff to work on. They'll just say, oh, they need some work. So let the people that come back to you be part of your healing team.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:36:49] Well, and isn't that true what you just said, is they have their own thing that they need to work on. We're so quick to judge somebody's behavior and to judge the fact that they can't support us and judge them in that way instead of getting curious to be like, Huh? Maybe this is triggering something big in them or this is causing a big reaction in them that they can't handle right now.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:37:11] 100%. 100%

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:37:12] And so we need to let them go and do their thing. And if they're meant to be in our lives, they'll come back around. So one thing I've always told people is when you ask a really hard question of someone, be willing to just sit there. Just sit. I don't care if you have to like count to 60 or count to 120, but give the other person the opportunity to finally talk. And sometimes in that moment where it's like, No, no, no, how are you really doing?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:37:40] Yeah.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:37:41] If you're like, okay, they're not answering. Shoot. They're not answering. Maybe they're mad at me. Maybe there, it was too deep of a question, right? Sometimes they just need a moment to process to be like, No, they're actually asking and maybe they're safe, and maybe I can actually say what I need to say. And then I know this sounds blunt, but like, shut up and let them,. Like, just let them go. And if if they say something and they're like, this is what's hurting right now, and they're crying and they're letting it out, when they pause, don't try to fix it. Follow it with like, what else?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:38:12] Yeah, I had a friend just say, Jason, I don't know what to say. It's like, I want to support you, but I don't know what to say. But that was real. And I appreciated him just speaking how it feels to hear this. And then I could tell him what to do next. And that was really helpful. So speak. Speak how you're feeling so that you can support them.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:38:38] So Jason has started an amazing organization and you know, this podcast, I've said from the day one, it's not going to be anything sales. But what we are doing is we're going to do a really cool giveaway at the end of this podcast if you go to the show notes, we're going to have a good giveaway for you, but we're also going to link to all of Jason's stuff. So from GivingSunshine.com where they put together the gift baskets, they have starter packs on there, the perfect sympathy care package, cancer support, all kinds of stuff on there that you can go to and you can help support his company as well and his family. But also where you can get in touch with him, you can connect with him. You can really take time to get to know him and how he's gone through all of this, and maybe see if he's a fit for you if you need some resources in that way. But is there anything else that you want to give as like a piece of advice? Tip? Something to someone who's dealing with this, whether they're... Let's do two if you're okay with it, is one is the person who's grieving a lost spouse or is about to lose their spouse from a similar situation, a tip that you would have for them, and also for their support people.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:39:54] And again, it goes back to finding some connections that will help you walk the journey, whether if your spouse is not doing very good, find some people that will walk through that journey with you. I think for me, I was trusting my family and other people that I had relationships with to just take over. But as I look back on it, it would have been helpful to develop some of those relationships prior to. I think later on I made my community, but I think start your community now, and start those hard or those emotional connections with people now. So they'll walk you through the whole process. And again, it goes back to connection. The opposite of grieving is connection and the opposite of depression and trauma, it's just connections and finding the right connections for you. That has been helpful through the process. And I couldn't have done it sooner. I should have done it sooner. But again.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:41:01] Hindsight's 2020.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:41:02] I'm too prideful and I just wanted to muscle through this. But it broke me and it broke me down to where I had a choice of either breaking down and falling apart or taking off the mask and allowing people to help me through my emotions. So I chose to let people in rather than falling apart in front of everybody. So it's a lot.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:41:31] They're going to show up no matter what. They're going to show up no matter what, whether you ask or if they have to be forced to later. And what about for the person helping, the person watching?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:41:44] It goes back to the questions that we've talked about, Dawn. It's asking hard questions and sit in the emotions, like just sit with them. That means so much. And someone that goes through traumatic events or someone that's lost a spouse, it's like the pop bottle just getting shaken up. And when you find someone safe to talk to you, oh, my gosh.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:42:08] Watch it blow.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:42:10] But don't be afraid of those. It'll decrease, but they finally find you a safe person. That's a compliment when someone starts to unload. Sit in that emotions and then just continue to come back. Don't disappear. Those people need you. They have made you a person they trust and feel open with. And you just got to sit in those emotions. And that can be so helpful for people that just need to get some of those emotions out. They need you, they want you. And it's part of the healing journey.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:42:48] Which is so beautiful, which is so beautiful. I know, I wish I had known all of this when I was dealing with grief in my life. And so it sounds really bad, but it's like, I'm glad I'm learning this now. I'm glad I know this now because let's be honest, we all die, right? Like, that's just part of life and grieving. And that's that's a huge just part of our world. And so to learn some of these things now is so powerful.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:43:13] Well, Dawn, do you remember what the doctor said to me in the hospital? Cancer has a way of enhancing your life. So we go for a full circle. And now I look back on that and I think of how blessed my life is, even though I've gone through a traumatic event and lost my wife, my life has been significantly enhanced because of what I have gone through, who I've met, who I've connected with, what I'm doing now to be able to help people through that process so they don't have to go through all the pain. And I'm sure you're on that same journey as well, is giving back and helping. My life has been enhanced because of doing my work and allowing myself to walk this path and being vulnerable so that I can help and I can heal in the process.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:44:06] I always tell people, look at the gift in the situation. And often people are like, Dawn, there isn't a gift. And I was like, No, no, no. Gifts aren't good or bad. Like you get good gifts. You get horrible gifts. But what are the gifts in this situation? There's something, there's something that's going to come out of this. There's something. But you get to choose what that's going to look like for you. Because you've got to go through it no matter what.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:44:30] Yeah.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:44:30] So let's find something to cling to. So let's end with just our silly questions that I do at the end of every one.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:44:37] Kind of worried about this, but go ahead.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:44:41] No, no. You know what they are? It's, they're just like silly things that normalize people and make just random things more attainable, but it just makes us all seem more human.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:44:52] Let's do it.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:44:53] So what do you spend a silly amount of money on?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:44:58] My kryptonite is gummy bears.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:45:01] That's amazing.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:45:02] I'm just, I'm kind of embarrassed, but that's, like, my favorite snack ever. It takes me back to being a kid and, like, I get them, and my kids want to eat them, and I, like, hoard them. So I just. I love gummy bears.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:45:15] We're going to put a link in the show notes here, like top couple of gummy bears for people to have. That is amazing.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:45:23] Every birthday I get like 5 pounds of gummy bears, so they just keep showing up.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:45:30] That is incredible. I love that so much. What is your secret guilty pleasure way to decompress other than eating gummy bears?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:45:38] Oh man, that's a great question.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:45:43] Like some people, it's like a random TV show or I build Lego. I have the world's largest Lego collection. It's ridiculous.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:45:52] You know what? Something that is really helpful, like even when I've dealt with stressful clients or you know what? I love to take off my shoes and go walk in the grass or...

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:46:06] Earthy.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:46:06] Or carpet. Just grounding myself with my environment is like, so amazing. And when I go to write notes or I'm stressed out, I like take off my shoes. That's the first thing I do. And it's like self-soothing.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:46:20] So that's amazing.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:46:22] Yeah. So go walk in the grass.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:46:25] No answer on this is weird and it's so cool to hear just what people do. So do you have a purchase you've made of about $100 or less that has most positively impacted your life in the last like six, eight months?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:46:39] And it's a little bit later, but yeah, I, when I was, I remember waking up and looking in the mirror after I started to take care of everybody, I looked at myself and I wasn't in very good shape and I just was a shell of my self. And I, I invested in a health coach to help me become healthier and happier. And it was over $100. It was a monthly thing, and it was well worth taking care of myself.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:47:10] Yeah, I think that's the biggest is we lose ourselves in taking care of the people around us. Then it feels, almost feels selfish to put money towards that or time towards that, all of those things. But it goes right back to like you got to put your oxygen mask on first. You got to focus on your own health. What is, last one, what is an unusual habit or some absurd thing that you love.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:47:36] I will tell you about my stupid human trick. And this is just bizarre. Anything I can get over my head, I can balance on my chair.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:47:49] Explain.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:47:49] Tables, chairs, shopping carts, small children.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:47:54] Really?

 

Jason Clawson: [00:47:55] It's kind of my mantra, like keeping your chin up. Like when we keep our chin up, we're not looking at the garbage on the ground, but we're, we're focusing on God, we're focused on people. And that will help us. So I will send you a picture.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:48:10] Oh, my goodness. Please send me a picture of that. That is amazing.

 

Jason Clawson: [00:48:13] It's kind of been my mantra, but it makes me unique. And and that's what I do. I balance things on my chin. It's my way of connecting with adolescents and people that are struggling. So yeah, that's.

 

Dawn Taylor: [00:48:27] Oh, that is that is amazing. That is totally unusual and I absolutely love it. So for anyone who is listening today, thank you so much for hanging out with Jason and I for this last hour. And I just want to thank you so much for being here, Jason, for being part of this conversation and being willing to talk about the hard stuff in life. And if you enjoyed this episode, please, please, please leave a review on Apple or Spotify podcasts, wherever you're listening to them. And definitely wanting to check the show notes this week because we're going to have some fun giveaway, I'm sorry, a fun giveaway, a fun photo, and some links to some amazing gummy bears. And we'll see you back here in a couple weeks.

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