Dawn Taylor|4/24/2023

Transcript

DAWN TAYLOR

I'm your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the amazing, sorry, I, like, freaking love this girl - Kiara Brown. So today's topic, if you read the title, is “My Family has lived here longer than yours has”. So yeah, we're doing it. We're digging into race. Before we get started, I wanna just tell you a little bit about our guests so you can be as excited as I am. 

Kiara is a lover of kids, a lover of people. She's a 23-year-old black Canadian woman, born and raised here in Edmonton, in Canada, not in another country. She has experienced racism like most people of colour, and she wants to just share some insight on what it's like and how it's affected her in life, but also to give us some advice on, like, as a privileged white female, what is appropriate and not appropriate to say? We're gonna dive into all of the good stuff, so I can't wait to get started. Welcome to the show, Kiara. 

KIARA BROWN

Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Me too. I know when I was talking to my staff about this episode, they're like, “Oh, so you're going for all of the hard topics that are gonna get you cancelled?” And I started laughing and I said, “No.” That's why we're having this conversation, is - cancel culture is such a huge thing right now. And like I remember that when you and I had a conversation one day and I was asking questions ‘cause I said, you know, where someone who's like super curious like I literally have this massive sign in my office wall that says like, “No judgment, just curiosity.”

And I live from this place of curiosity. So I often wanna hear about someone's culture, where they're from or how they live life. Like, I'm known for asking people like, what were the 10 meals you weighed all the time growing up. Like, this is just who I am. But I was like, how do I ask these questions appropriately to not offend someone?

And you made this statement at that point, you're like, what's hardest is a lot of people are like, “Oh, where are you from?” And you're like, “Really? Like my family's lived here longer than yours has.” Like, generationally born and raised over and over and over in this country, and yet you still don't get treated that way.

And that's when you and I decided to like, chat about this and dive into this. So let's start with like, you used to live over the back fence from me. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, I was like, like seven or eight I think. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, tiny. 

KIARA BROWN

Really little. I don't know how many years ago that was, yeah, quite a few, more than five. Um, I remember it so vividly. I remember, like we were playing in the backyard and, like, I’d seen somebody staring at us through the window and I was like, “Who is that?” And it was a little girl, which was your niece. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It was like you made it sound like I was staring at you at a window. No, my niece 

KIARA BROWN

Then, “Let's go play.” And I was like “Oh, like sure.” Like, let's meet up and then. We started talking about what my parents did for work, and then she started talking about what you do for work. And I was like, oh, it's kind of similar. “Let's introduce our parents.” And then we, we kind of just like, were in each other's lives from that point on. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Totally. 

KIARA BROWN

And we used to bake and like, make food. It was super fun. Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

It's been a couple of years. So even as that little girl, I remember, like, you and all your sisters coming over and you were these five beautiful little Jamaican-like dolls. Like you were just the sweetest kids ever. And I loved having you over to hang out with our nieces and nephews and it was so much fun. But when did this whole concept and idea of race and colour and being like looking different or being different or whatever it is, like when did that really show up in your life and how?

KIARA BROWN

Um, like from elementary school, I feel like for me specifically, like luckily I didn't experience, like, hard racism like some people do, like, you know, getting, like, bullied in like the extreme stuff. But I, like, my sisters and I were definitely raised to not really like, be judgmental towards people who look different than us, and like our family is full of, like, different colours anyways, so like we were used to seeing that like within our family, but then when it came to like being in public like I would get, you know, annoying comments from people like, like from kids. Like the typical child comment that's like, “Oh, like your skin looks like shit.” And I'm like, okay. Like, “Thank you”.

DAWN

Oh, my word. 

KIARA

It's like, funny for kids to talk about the bathroom. Yeah. And so, you know, like I've gotten those comments like as a young child or you know, like people would like, make fun of, you know, how big my lips were and like, yeah.

You know, and like there was like a whole stigma, like, you know, once I got into, like, the dating age, like stigma, how like, you know, guys don't like to go for black girls. So like, you know, like I always felt kind of on the outside, like, there wasn't a lot of black people at the schools that I went to. It was really mostly just my sisters and I. So we were like known ‘cause we were like one of two black families that were in that entire school. So it's, it was kind of hard to forget who we were, but then, you know, there was always like the comments and the whispering and whatnot. So it was. Kind of hard to, like, fit in and, like, accept myself.

Like, you know, there were times where I'm like, like, you know, I kind of wish that I wasn't black because then maybe I would be more accepted by other people or, you know, maybe I would be liked more or you know, like comments about my hair. Like, just like, ugh, can I just be normal? You know, for everybody else, like, socially acceptable.

So, yeah, I would say from. like. a young age, that's where it started. It just kind of progressed as I got older and I didn't really know a lot about, you know, racism and stuff like that. Like it wasn't, it wasn't really talked about by my parents. Like you just kind of hoped that you didn't have to experience it, but it wasn't like a subject that they would be like, oh, you know, somebody says blah, blah, blah to you.

Like, you know, let me know. Like, it was just, it was just not talked about by my parents. It wasn't brought up that much like maybe it was hinted at, but I feel like we were so little that we didn't really understand what they were talking about. No shame towards my parents at all. I'm sure they -

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, no, no, no, for sure 

KIARA BROWN

They would've tried to shed light on the subject, but you know, we were always around family, so it wasn't, we didn't have to worry when we were at home about experiencing that.

DAWN TAYLOR

Well, and it's interesting ‘cause we live in a, like, we live in the same city for anyone listening who's outside of Edmonton, we live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and Edmonton is known for being so multicultural. Like every, there is a group or a, like every single country in the world is represented in Edmonton in a big way.

Like it is the most cultural city I've ever been to in my entire life, which is so, so, so cool. But I remember talking to your mom one time and saying like, like, I remember the day I saw my first black person, like as crazy as that is, and was the stupid little kid who probably made an inappropriate comment, but like getting on a bus when I was eight or nine and I was like “Whoa.” Coming from like this little northern town. And it so wasn't talked about, like it wasn't discussed. It wasn't talked about. And I feel dumb even saying that. Right? But like there just wasn't an emotional intelligence around it. The same as around like L G B T Q.

Like there just wasn't, And part of that is just generational and that is not a justification or an excuse for any of it. But there's a reason, there's a reason why so many of like different generations and people raised in certain areas actually just don't know. And so, no, I know I've had like, I have friends of every nationality and I have friends all over the world and, and they always laugh cuz they're like, you're so hilarious.

The questions you ask are so funny, but you're like, you know, it's innocent, but you're just so curious. And I'm like, but teach me how to talk like, Like, I want to know, I want to know how to have an amazing conversation and know about your, your beliefs and your culture and your life, and all of these things without offending, without hurting, without, you know, feeling judged for what I'm saying.

So can you give some insight into that in your world? It's like, okay, so let's start with like, how long has your family been in Canada and where culturally, genetic-wise, where are you from? Or whatever the proper way is to word that. 

KIARA BROWN

So me and my sisters and I and my dad, we were all born here in Alberta.

Um, and I, I'm pretty sure, I don't know where exactly my dad was born. I'm pretty sure he was born in Edmonton as well, but I could be wrong. My mom is from Jamaica and it's funny because like when people would ask me like, where are you from? And I'm like, I'm from here. They would like, they wouldn't believe me.

That's why I hate that question so much because they won't believe me. They're like, “No, where are you really from?” Really? What do you mean, here?” Like, one time I told somebody, like, I was like, I was born in Grey Nuns hospital at this time on this day. Like, I can find out the room for you if you really wanna know.

Like, yeah. I'm like, “What? What do you mean? Like where?” And so once I would say, like, “My mom's from Jamaica” they're like, “Oh, so you're Jamaican?” And I'm like, “Oh, no, I've never even been there.” So, like, there are some people like, they're like, “Oh, like you are Jamaican? Because your mom is.” and I'm like, well, technically no.

I don't know anything about Jamaica. I don't even know what the capital of Jamaica is. So I'm like, just because she's from there doesn't mean that that's what I am. But it's like, I understand the question like I get it, you know? If I see an Asian person, I don't assume that they're from here, but I don't ask because I'm like, I know what it's like to- 

DAWN TAYLOR

‘Cause, you know.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Like, I just kinda wait for it to come up in conversation. I, I don't mind people asking me questions. It's just when they don't believe me that it, like, starts to annoy me. 

DAWN TAYLOR

So what is, a more, so you made an interesting statement on, or commented on, Like, “That's not who I am.” 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Or where I'm from. Is there a better way to ask that question around? Like, what is your background? What is your culture? What's your heritage? You know, like the ancestry style, like Yeah. I'm German. I'm German, but I haven't ever been to Germany and I don't know German but, like, that's where all my grandparents were born.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

That kind of thing, right? So like I can say that that's my, I don't know what is, what is the proper wording for that? Like if somebody was to ask you, cuz like for me like there's, I mean this is like knowing your family. Right? There are things that you guys do. There are cultural things right down to how you guys are nicknamed. All of these things are because of your mom from Jamaica, right? Like there's just some, like even her, your mom's 40th birthday party. I remember her 40th birthday party and it was this whole thing and I was like, wow. And she's like, oh, it's a Jamaican thing. Right down to the food, the music, like all these things, the dress code, like everything.

So like there are things about your life, right? That I've always been so curious about that I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. But like, what is the appropriate way to ask without sounding like an idiot? do you know what I mean? 

KIARA BROWN

I get it. Yeah. It's like it's such a gray area ‘cause it's depending on what you've been through.

It could be not offensive, but it could be offensive. I feel like the best way to ask, like, ugh. It's, like, it depends on the person. Like, some people are very easily offended. I feel like that's-, 

DAWN TAYLOR

It's just life these days it seems. Right? 

KIARA BROWN

Like, if you're genuinely very curious, like I feel like you could start with that, but don't, like, make that the beginning of the conversation. Like, if you're trying to get to know the person I ask certain questions first, you know, like about their work life or whatever. And then kind of ease, ease your way into the conversation. But then might be like, you know, like, I'm just curious, like, were you born here? Or you know, were you born somewhere else?

And then, you know, whatever they answer, like, if they say they're from here like the follow-up was always “Where are your parents from?” for me. Um, yeah. I don't mind saying where they're from. Um, I feel, like, the way, the best way to word it is like, like, “Are your parents born here too?” Or like, “Were they from here?”

But, like, make it sound, like, interesting. Like that you're into the conversation and what they're actually talking about. Not just like, oh, like, you know, I was just being nosy kind of thing. And like for me, I don't really know much about Jamaican culture. We weren't really brought up in a Jamaican way.

So a lot of, like, oh my God, I have no idea. Like we didn't really eat traditional Jamaican foods. We weren't taught. You know, we weren't, it wasn't talked about, you know, how my mom grew up in Jamaica, like anything like that. So I'm like, I have no idea. I'm like, do I even have a culture at this point? Like I have a background, but like I'm just the Canadian gal with darker skin.

DAWN TAYLOR

Hey, that is so amazing though. Like, do I even have a culture at this point? Like, that almost brings up like its own topic of like, what is our culture? Like, what does that even mean? 

KIARA BROWN

Like I always, I always make a joke that Canada doesn't really have a culture ‘cause we're, it's just– 

DAWN TAYLOR

It’s a mix.

KIARA BROWN

I'm like, you know, like you hear about, like, Italian culture and like, oh, like, you know, in Italy this is what we do. I'm like, we don't do that here. At least I don't do that here. I've never met any Canadian that's like, “Oh, that's so Canadian.” Like, you know, rather than– 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like poutine! 

KIARA BROWN

Like literally poutine, like wearing shorts in Canada minus 10 degrees. I'm like, that's Canadian. Anything else that's like specific foods, like dances, clothes, I'm like, there's, there's nothing here that really, like, no, makes us fancier or interesting. Like, we just have the stereotypes that everybody likes to make fun of, but like, oh, that–

DAWN TAYLOR

That's so interesting.

KIARA BROWN

Like, I'm like, I don't even know anything about my culture really at all. So I'm like, when people ask those questions, like, part of me is annoyed, but part of me is also like a little bit embarrassed because I'm like, I don't know. Most people, I feel like they know a little bit at least, but I'm like, I have no idea. Like, I can't answer your questions, guys. I'm sorry. 

DAWN TAYLOR

No, that is, no, and it makes sense, like, man. For anyone who hasn't been to Canada, man, Come to Edmonton and just come to heritage days and experience Canada in a different way. So looking up culture versus heritage, right? Culture is made up of our beliefs and habits as a group or society.

Right? That's our culture. So, like, Edmonton has a culture. A group will have a culture where the heritage is things included from the past that are then coming into the present and are constantly changing. So, I know one thing I'll often ask in my work is because a lot of generational staff is so, like, it's so intertwined, right?

Like we hold the trauma of our ancestors and our DNA for up to three generations. So it's an interesting topic today because, like, I have to ask this every single day of my work is like, what is, like, what is your background, right? And I'm, I'm constantly like, and one of the ways that I have often started asking it is like, where are your ancestors from?

KIARA BROWN

Oh, that's a good way to ask.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right? Like, not you, not, where are you from? Like where are your ancestors? Because like my ancestors are from like Germany and the Ukraine and Russia and the states, like all of those areas that doesn't make me that way. But growing up, we were raised with some, like, with some cultural habits and beliefs and things based on that. Like there are some weird things of my childhood that I'm like, oh my word, I'm so Eastern European. Like, my relatives definitely are Eastern Europeans. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

You know, based on that, that action or that belief or whatever it is. And so would you appreciate that as the question more is, like, “Where are your ancestors from?”

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. I feel like that's like, ‘cause it's not assuming. You know, I'm from somewhere else, or that I am something else. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Totally.

KIARA BROWN

And it kinda like, makes it, at least for me, I'd be like, “Oh, like this person actually really is interested.” In, you know, like my history. Like, they don't, they're not just fishing for information to, like, make jokes or something like. Ilike the way that it's worded. I feel like that's much more respectful and it'll avoid less controversy if people just ask that question instead of not believing the person that they're talking to. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Just a little easier. Well, and then, and tell me if I'm wrong, because I've been thinking through this, right? Like even just within my own clients, like, someone actually asked me one time, they're like, “So what kind of people do you work with?” And I was like, “Humans?” 

KIARA BROWN

What do you mean? 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like, fully understanding the question, but it was someone who wanted to refer someone from another culture to me, like from a different ethnic background for, we wanna word that ancestral background, right? And I was like, no, no, no. I love working with people from other cultures and backgrounds ‘cause I really understand a lot of, and I'm very, very curious about, like, how our great grandparents were raised and their beliefs on things and how that's travelled down generationally, even though I can say I'm German and not know a thing about German culture. 

I could Google the characteristics of an Eastern European woman and I probably check off 90% of the boxes. And I find that so interesting and so empowering to understand where people come from because it plays so much into, like, who they are currently. So, two of the things I was thinking is, like, to ask someone, like, where are your ancestors from and did your family carry any of those traditions into your childhood? 

KIARA BROWN

That's another really good question. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Like, like did any of those cultures, did any of those things get carried into your childhood?

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, I like that question and at least then, like, you know, you can kind of get to know where they stand without offending them. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Well, ‘cause then if it's like not a thing, then you're like, okay, cool. 

KIARA BROWN

Kinda have all the information that you need.

DAWN TAYLOR

Done, conversation over. 

KIARA BROWN

Right. Next topic. 

DAWN TAYLOR

But if it's like, actually yeah, we had, like, a crazy childhood with all of these traditional things and all of these things that were, for my childhood, I can be like, oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Right. Tell me more. 

KIARA BROWN

And I feel, like, from there then you can be like, so like, “Were you born here?” But just raised that way. Then, then it's not, it's not as offensive.

You're already in the conversation. So it's like, okay, like now I can kind of ask like where you're from and then there's no, like, big rant or tangent, you know, to whoever about like, people are so disrespectful or whatever. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. And I honestly think that the majority of people don't mean to be disrespectful.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Actually, I had one guy that was, I don't know if those were his intentions, but he was pretty rude. Like I had just encountered, but you know what I find, like, especially here, no offence, but like it's a lot of African people if they if you are not from Africa, but you are black. It's, like, insane to them.

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, interesting.

KIARA BROWN

Every, like, semi-rude encounter that I've had with somebody, like just being super weird. It's always with somebody from Africa. I don't, and I have no idea why. like, my mom's like, “Yeah, Africans are just like that.” But I'm like, I don't–

DAWN TAYLOR

I love the, like weird, almost like racism within racism.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, I'm like, I don't get it. But like there's still, like, I have a coworker and, like, she's from Africa and she was new to the daycare and she had asked me, she was like, “Are you from Africa?” And I was like, “No.” She was like, “Where are you from?” And I was like, “I was born here.” And she was like, “That's interesting.” And laughed.

And I was like, “What do you mean, why did you laugh like that?” I'm like, “Why is that interesting?” Or when I was in school, this other African girl was like, “Where are your parents from?” And I was like, “Um, my mom's from Jamaica.” And she was like, “What?” She was like, “What about your dad?” And I was like, “Oh, he's from Canada.”

And she was like, “Your dad's white?” I was like, ”What? I never said that.” Like, I don't even look half-white. Like, I mean, maybe, no, but I'm like, uh, no. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Check the show notes. You can see a gorgeous picture! 

KIARA BROWN

Literally, like this, where in this is, maybe my hands. That's about it. Like, no, there's, I'm like, what? And then like, those were just two like weird encounters, but like, I'd say like the rudest one, I was in an Uber, and again, it was this African guy I only know because he had a really strong accent.

So I was like, obviously you're not from here. But he would, as again, asking where I was from, like, I was like, “Oh, like I'm from here.” And he is like, “Oh, like what about your parents?” And I told them, I told him like where they were from and he was like, yeah, he's like, but where's your country of origin?

And I was like,” Um, here.” He was like, no, but like, “Where were you born?” And I was like, “Here, literally in this city.” And he is like, “No, no, no.” Like, “You're not really Canadian.” And I was like, “Yes I am.” He would not let it go. Like, he just kept saying that I'm not really Canadian and that like, I don't know what I'm talking about, and I was like, what do you mean? Like, I mean, I don't remember my birth, but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't lie on a birth certificate. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right, right. 

KIARA BROWN

This is really where I'm from. Like, and he just, he kept laughing in my, like in my face, like I was, you know, in the backseat. Yeah. But he kept giggling and, like, just like, “No, no, no.” Like “She doesn't know where she's from.” Like, “What is she talking about?” Like talking to nobody but, like, talking about me while I was still in the car and I was like, 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, my word. 

KIARA BROWN

Is this a real conversation right now? Am I really talking like, is this really happening? And like, like I heard him after that. Like, you know, cause like I was offended, like, and usually I don't get offended by like, you know, racist things.

Like, I'm just like, you know, whatever. People are stupid. Like, there's just ignorant common sense when they were born. But like, I was really offended. Like, I was like, how dare you say that I'm not really Canadian, just because it's so shocking to you that I could be born here. Yeah, that was like really the only conversation that I was like, Ew.

DAWN TAYLOR

So, how do you, I mean, short of you're just getting mad, right? How do you deal with those comments when they come? Or even like, like when so what was the movie that just came out? Little Mermaid.

KIARA BROWN

Oh my God. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Hey, I wanna know your thoughts on, but also like, how do you deal with those comments when those comments happen or you, when you get treated different?

KIARA BROWN

Um, I usually just, like, rant to my sisters about it ‘cause most of the time they're, you know, they get it. They agree. So, and like, I don't really have any black friends honestly. Like, I have my sisters and that's it. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Really?

KIARA BROWN

Like, yeah, I don't, I don't remember really ever having any like black friends, ‘cause there was not a lot of black people when I was in school. It was like other cultures. But yeah, I just rant, you know, to my sisters on the occasion. My mom, You know, cuz I'm sure she's experienced more than I have. 

But yeah, I just rant about it and kind of get it off my chest. And then what mostly helps me is just making fun of how stupid that person was because it's like, I'm like, yeah, you can say all the racist shit you want, but I'm like, at the end of the day you look dumber than I do. Like you're saying this out loud, like, isn't that embarrassing to you? Like I just mock them and sometimes I'll, like, have a fake conversation of me telling them off.

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, that's amazing. 

KIARA BROWN

I just get rid of all the annoyingness. And then I'm like, okay. 

DAWN TAYLOR

You're like, I'm good now. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, because like, and I think because it's mostly just comments. Whatever, like words are words like, you know, like, they hurt, but I can get over it. It's not like you, you know, punched me in the face or anything. Like, you know, it's like, oh my God, whatever. Okay, sure. Be ignorant. Like, that's you. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yes. Like, I'm trying to think of, like, how many times in my life I've probably been so ignorant without even realizing it. It's like without even thinking. 

KIARA BROWN

And then like, if it's, I can tell that, you know, they're just trying to be curious. I'm like, okay, like, how cute, you know, like still a little bit in a mockery way. Like if I'm venting, if it was like enough for me to talk about it after. But if it's like someone's genuinely curious, like I kind of appreciate that person.

I'm like, oh, like you're so sweet. Like you're trying to kind of get to know who I am. Like, like, and I like it, like I respect. And like, you know, if, if it is something that's like bothered me and it's like, then I know who you are, then I'm like, you know what? Like the other day when you said that thing, like, little bit racist, maybe you shouldn't say that again.

Well, luckily it's just me and I'm a non-violent person, but I'm like, there are some black people in this world that, you know, they might do something and uh, you don't wanna end up like that. So watch what you're saying. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like just don't say that again. 

KIARA BROWN

Right. Think about it. Google it. Google is your best friend. She tells you all the things you need to know and like just, and I feel like if you have to question it, like if you have to question like, was that racist? Like if you're not a person of color, then it probably is like if you have to ask yourself. What's it that I said was offensive? I'm like, yeah, probably. Just don't do it again. Apologize if you need to learn from your mistakes. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I know. How many times have I asked you, like, “Is this appropriate to say, can I say it like this?” And you just laugh at me. You're like, “Yeah, you're fine.” 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

But I'm also like, but I'm also very, I'm very, very hyper aware of that, because I don't ever wanna come across as racist or stereotyping or anything. At all. But I'm also like the most curious human being and genuinely desire to know people and know what their childhoods are like, and know the weird foods they ate or weird traditions they had. And we do, like we live in a country with over 200 distinct cultures. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, which is insane.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right? Which is nuts if you think about it. Yeah. Okay. So the reaction to Little Mermaid, talk to me about that ‘cause the look on your face is amazing. 

KIARA BROWN

I hate that entire, the whole controversy around the Little Mermaid. I'm like, what is wrong with people? I don't like, I have no–

DAWN TAYLOR

Explain the controversy from your standpoint to begin with.

KIARA BROWN

Okay. So, You know, whatever time it was announced that the Little Mermaid was coming out, like, they were like, “Oh yeah, it's so awesome.” Not the new one. And then once the actress was announced, I don't even know her name, Hailey something, and people saw that she was black. I was like, “Oh, I know this is gonna get all the white people mad.”

Or like 60% of them at least, you know, the bad ones. Um, and like, I was kind of prepared for it. Like, I didn't really comment to people about, I didn't really encounter anybody in my personal life that was offended by it, thank God, because there would be some issues. But yeah, I mean, I like to read the comments just to see how dumb people are.

Um, you know, it makes myself feel a little bit, that there's so many weird people. But, um, I was like, I mean, even though I was expecting the reaction, like I was kind of disappointed because, oh, it was like, it was so heartbreaking. Like, you know, there's so many little girls like videos that people would show of their, like, little black daughter, so excited that, you know, they look like Ariel, Ariel looks like her, and then there was like a brief moment where people started to do blackface, like mocking those videos. I'm like, oh my God. 

Like, what is happening right now? Like, that was the part that, like, really disgusted me. Like, I'm like, are you like, come on. It's like we're in the 21st century and you're, you're acting that way and, like, posting it online for people to see Like, I was like, I was in shock when people started doing blackface. Like, I was like, okay, I think it's a little bit too much now. Like you can be mad about it, but don't do that. Like, you know. 

DAWN TAYLOR

So do you think part of it is, and this is interesting, because I, like, spend all day, every day with people. Of every sexual preference, every identity, every, like, you name it, you name it. I talk to anyone and everyone on a daily basis. And it was interesting, the people that just don't get it, right? And I mean that in a way of, like, a man will never understand a woman's feelings around being always paid less. They'll never get that, they'll never get the gender equality thing because they, they can't, they're on the other side of it, 

KIARA BROWN

On the wrong side of things. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. And I feel like often there's– it's so funny, I'm like, I have to be so careful with what I say. 

KIARA BROWN

Cause I'm like, be careful around me. People can stay offended if they want to. 

DAWN TAYLOR

No, no, no. Right. But like, and I know I won't offend you, but like, I often think is it, is it that there's, so like say my grandparents, for example, my grandparents that were like these beautiful little German Mennonite farmers, lived in this really tiny town and community of like maybe a couple thousand people at its peak.

Right? Like they just, they weren't ever put in a position to know anything about other cultures. Like, that was never something they were faced with. It wasn't something that was even brought into their world like, If you were raised in Northern Saskatchewan and a little tiny farming community and every street name within 10 miles is a family member. Like you aren't thrown into even having to understand it. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. There's just, but, there's a lot of people will look at that as ignorance, and I think that it's almost like an innocence. It's like a sad innocence. Where it's like you've just never been, you've never been in a position to learn.

You've never been in a position to be forced to learn or even know that it's an option to learn, right? And so I wonder if some of it, again, not justifying people's shit behavior, but if some of it is actually just like, “Hey, you know what? I've never been in your shoes. I've never been there and I don't understand it.” But, people are so offended by everything these days that people are scared to be like, “Hey, can you explain this to me?”

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, yeah. I noticed that a lot. Like, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt just ‘cause like I'm a people pleaser, but, like with the whole Ariel mermaid thing, like there was a lot of people that were like, “Oh, like, but what if they did that with, you know, The Princess and The Frog?” I'm like, okay, well, she's literally the only black princess, so it wouldn't make sense to make somebody else, you know? But, like, I kind of understood, like, both sides, like I would be, you know, confused. I don't know if I would be offended, but I would be confused if they did that with Tiana making her a white girl. So like, you know, I get people being, you know, upset. They wanted the, like, original Ariel, like the way she looked and everything. So like, I get it, you know, people just wanting it to stay the same, but at the same time–

DAWN TAYLOR

No, but there's the other side of it.

KIARA BROWN

She's a fish. Like, she's not even a real thing. She's not a, like, I mean, I believe mermaids exist, but I'm like, we've never seen one. So in reality, it's a cartoon character. She could be purple, like nobody cares. It's a fish in an ocean. Talking to other fish, it's fine. 

DAWN TAYLOR

But even not only that. You and I just over, like, lunch one time as a date. Like we were on, like, a coffee date when you were having a rough day or something when you were like, I don't know, probably like 13, 14. And we were talking about, and we can cut this if we need to, but we were talking about the fact that, like, even dating looked different or having friends or having cuss on boys, like all these things just looked different because you never saw what that looked like before.

KIARA BROWN

Yeah, definitely. Even, like, now, like in my adult life, I'm like, I still kind of get on the fence about, like, dating and stuff. ‘Cause you know, I don't, I don't really see it unless it's on social media. It was some, like, famous couple, like yeah, I wasn't surrounded by it. And you know, like, my dad, like, he always made it, like, me and my sisters make fun of it, but like, he made it like a thing how like we had to marry a black guy.

But like, the way he would word it, it's like, um, like if we were like, oh, we have a crush on, So-and-so, it's like, he would say, “Is he a brother?” Like, ‘cause that's like black people, they just call each other like brother and sister, auntie, whatever. So we would always, like, my sisters and I would always, like, laugh and mock that phrase.

DAWN TAYLOR

That's awesome, yeah. 

KIARA BROWN

It was so funny. But like, we would, but then I'm like, I feel like that kind of hindered my view on dating outside of my own culture. Like, I'm just like, like, is it like, why? Are those the only guys that are gonna go for me? And like, I don't know if this is racist or not. I'm not into black guys.

I just don't care for them. Um, it's, just not my preference, but it's like, do other people say the same thing about me? Like, do they not wanna date me because I'm black? Like, and there was like a very brief moment in time where I, like, didn't see myself as pretty because, you know, like all the guys were going for the white women or no, anything other than black. And I'm like, I'm like, are we not good enough? Like, you know, what is the, and it wasn't talked about in my house. We weren't, we didn't talk about dating and things like that. I didn't have, all my friends were white, so, you know, they didn't have an issue with getting anybody they wanted.

So, like, I didn't really have anybody to turn to when it came to dating and stuff like that. Like I have my older sisters, but like, my oldest sister's five, four, seven years older than me. So, you know, when she was dating I'm like, I was like in grade six and I wasn't, I didn't date at that age, you know.

So the one did come to dating, it was like, “Oh, like I like this guy.” And then, you know, like she would tell me to like, go for it. But then it's like, “Okay, but like he's white. Is he really gonna like me?” Like yeah, it, it was, it's always a question. Even now, like, I'm just like, do they, like, even if they've seen me in my head for some odd reason, I'm like, “Do they know I'm black though?” Like I know we've made eye contact, but have you seen my skin? Like, look, they're like, I'm like, yeah, they’ve seen me. I'm like, but did they really see me? 

DAWN TAYLOR

Like, but did they notice, did they have their color eyes on? 

KIARA BROWN

Like, did they see, like, their color? I don’t know why.

DAWN TAYLOR

That's amazing. 

KIARA BROWN

I have no idea why that question pops in my mind.

Yeah. Like knowing that they've actually physically seen me. Yeah. But it's, what if they forgot and, like, changed their minds? Like, even with my first relationship, he was white or half-white, Hispanic, whatever he was, and like, It got to like a point where, ‘cause like I always had braids in my hair. I, lik,e rarely ever have my hair like this mostly ‘cause I didn't know how to do it. But, my mom was just always braiding our hair and so it came time to, like, take my hair out, like, “I'm not braiding your hair again.” I was like, oh my God, like is he gonna break up with me because of my hair? Like, and I was genuinely very worried.

It's such a dumb question. Like, I had a conversation with him. I was like, “Okay, like, you know, like, my hair isn't as long as it was in braid, like, it's shoulder length. It's not halfway down my back.” And he's like, “Yeah, okay, that's fine.” And I'm like, “But like, do you still like me?”

And he was like, “I'm not dating you because of your hair.” Like, yeah, if that was the case, then what would be the point? Kind of thing. But, like, it was a genuine worry for me and like I didn't know how to like, process. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Yeah. Well, and that's, thank you so much for that vulnerability. I think that's where, like, I personally get excited. I mean some of my favorite people that I follow online are black creators and interior decorators and stuff ‘cause it's just, like, they use so much color and it's bold and it's beautiful and I don't know. I love it. And they're so stylish. Like, I personally, they're some of my favorites. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah.

DAWN TAYLOR

Right, and I've always had black friends, and especially as an adult and things like that. And so for myself, having heard some of this before and understanding that, I remember walking through life for about a week where everywhere I went and was like, “What if I was the minority? What if I didn't feel like I fit here? What if I didn't see myself on a mannequin or didn't see myself in a magazine or didn't see myself on a TV show and couldn't identify?”

KIARA BROWN

Mm-hmm. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. Because as a white woman, it's so easy to see myself in all of those situations. Yeah. Because I'm everywhere, right? And so for me, every time I see, like, a new TV show come out or I see, you know, Shonda Gardner and Caron Hamilton, and I'll link them in the show notes.

They're two incredible designers that I have followed for years, quietly in the background ‘cause I don't comment ‘cause I'm bad, but like every time they have a massive success. I'm so excited. And when I saw Little Mermaid come out, I was like, that's amazing. Like, yeah, why can't we change it? Why can't we change how things are being?

KIARA BROWN

Exactly. 

DAWN TAYLOR

And make the world feel safer for people. Help more people to feel seen or understood or heard or whatever. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I mean it's, the whole point of this podcast, let's be honest, is, like, help people feel seen and heard and understood and, and have these conversations. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. And like, this just, like, randomly popped in my mind. When you said safer, it, like, triggered like a memory? Like, of a conversation that I had had mostly about the states. And I used to have a friend, she lived there for a bit. And she was saying I should come and visit her. And I was like, no, like “I wanna see you, but like I don't wanna go there.”

She was like, why? And I was like, because you know, often people who look like me get shot by the police or get the cops called to them, get yelled at by some random Karen walking in the streets. I'm like, I don't wanna have to risk that and I don't wanna go to the States ever. And you know, she was like, oh, like, “Well, this didn't happen in the area that I live in.”

I'm like, it literally happens all over that country. I don't care where you're living. It happens every single day to someone, whether it's filmed and, you know, it goes viral or not. It's always happening. And I'm not trying to risk it, like, not trying to say that Canada's not, you know, racist, but like–

DAWN TAYLOR

No, no, but it's not, it doesn't feel dangerous. It doesn't feel dangerous here. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Like if I'm, you know, walking on the sidewalk and I see a cop car, I don't get scared. Like, I'm just like, “Oh, they're just patrolling in the area.” But I feel, like, if I was in the States then and I saw a cop car, I would get nervous because I'm like, I've seen all the videos, I've seen people walking to their car and they get tackled.

I'm like, I don't wanna risk my life trying to go get my mail or catch the bus. And like, I often run to the bus stop because I always leave late. I'm like, if I was in the States, and this like comes across my mind at least once a month, like when I'm running for the bus, I'm like, if I was in the States right now, like somebody might think that I’m running from some, doing some sort of criminal activity. I'm, like, thank goodness that I live in the area that I do where I don't have to worry every day about taking the bus and having somebody, you know, call someone on me cuz they think I'm suspicious. Like if it's a very nice, safe country, if you don't live here, that should come here because, oh, I know it's, the States sucks.

DAWN TAYLOR

But us listeners are like, “And delete.” They're like, no, no. It's just, it's just so, it is so different. I was in Florida quite a few years ago when there was a ton of unrest, we'll put it that way, going on around Black Lives Matter stuff. And this was quite a few years ago, and I remember walking with a friend there and she's.like, “No, no, no. We're fine ‘cause we're white.” And I was like, “What?” And I felt in danger and she's like, I can't even believe I'm gonna say this, but like, “We're okay.” Yeah. And I was like, “That's gross.” That's like, that's actually gross. Like, that should not be a concern is like how to teach your kids to deal with cops and how to do those things ‘cause that's, that's never something we like, I'll ever have to deal with.

KIARA BROWN

Exactly. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Right. So, on behalf of. Ignorant idiots everywhere. I'm so sorry. Do you have to deal with that? Cause that's, folks, I'm apologizing on behalf of all the white people. 

KIARA BROWN

All the bad white people. All bad white, white people in my life. You are the greatest white person that I know. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Thank you. There's some good ones out there, right? 

KIARA BROWN

So we'll just, we'll just apologize for the bad. The bad apples in the basket. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Oh, there's bad apples in every basket, like you said, with like other cultures against you, right. But, is there anything that people can do or say or ways that they can react in not just, like, donating money to a fund, but like an actual, like, tangible, hands-on thing that people could do to ease some of that barrier?

KIARA BROWN

Um, I definitely feel like the biggest help, especially when it comes to, you know, those in power, like cops and any government official. I feel like the training is like where they need to start. Like, get a really good teacher, whoever trains those people. You know, like, ‘cause like there's racist cops everywhere, but I feel like, you know, you can donate as much as you want to, what, all the organizations in the world.

But I'm like, essentially like, yeah, you're helping, but like, like probably 2%. I'm like, you're just putting money who, even, I don't even know who runs those things. Like, you could just be a liar who's like, oh yeah, like I'm donating to Black Lives Matter. But, really they're just pocketing the money for themselves or putting it somewhere else.

So I feel the best way to start would be to retrain all those people, you know? I don't know how long cop training is, but I'm pretty sure it's, like, not that long. I've heard, I could be wrong, but I've heard it's not, it's not very lengthy. Um, they could probably make it a bit longer and, you know, teach how to deal with different situations.

DAWN TAYLOR

But what about even, on a tangible level for just like an everyday person. I know one of the things that I was thinking about and like stepping into this episode today was like, what about even, just, like, making eye contact and saying hi? Like, just befriend people like that. Just like knowing that we're all the same. We're all just humans. 

KIARA BROWN

Exactly. Yeah. Like saying hi, acknowledging, and I think also a really big thing would be teaching about black history in school. I mean, I haven't been in school for a bit, but I know at least when I was in school, it was literally never talked about like, like the idea was floated, but like people would probably hear that from like, you know, their, their parents or cousins or whoever, wherever that person heard it from.That's where it was. Like all word of mouth stuff. Um, I feel like teaching it in schools, like, or teaching about differences from like a young age, you know, like–

DAWN TAYLOR

I was gonna say, even just talking about cultural differences as a whole. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Like, just like letting it be known, like, you know, just because they look different. Like we're all the same. ‘Cause like, you know, I've, I've encountered kids, like in my adult life, like working with kids, you know, they would make comments like, oh, like your skin looks like poop. Or like, they'd be, “Oh, why are you brown?” And it's, like, innocent, you know? Like, I just laugh about it, you know? It's like a funny story for me to tell to their parents ‘cause like they're so innocent. Like, but I'm like–

DAWN TAYLOR

“Can I lick you? Do you taste like chocolate?” Oh, my God. 

KIARA BROWN

That one funny story. My cousin, so for some odd reason, I don't know how biology works, but in my family, on my dad's side, both his parents were black. Somehow his sisters came out like tan- looking. 

DAWN TAYLOR

They're very pale compared to the rest of you. 

KIARA BROWN

Yeah. Right. And so my youngest cousin, I don't know if you remember him, but actually I won't even say his name on here, but my youngest cousin when he was little, because he was, you know, different-like colored than the rest of us, he always a different shape, like chocolate and he would always try to lick us and like he was so little, right?

So, but he's like, “Can I taste your chocolate skin?” And like, no. Like I'm not a chocolate bar. I'm a person. And it was so funny to me, like when you said chocolate, like it just, I just brought that memory up. I haven't thought it in such a long time. Remember when you thought we were chocolate? How do you think now? Yeah. Like, but kids, like, they're so innocent. So like, you know, when kids ask me, like, especially if they ask me like, “Why is your skin darker?” Like, I'm just like, oh, like, you know, “I was just born like this.” And I always, even though they're toddlers, I, like, retort the question back to them.

Like, “Why are you like that?” Like, why do you look like, they're like, because like it's only the sassy kids that ask those questions. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, like “Why do you look like that?” And they're like, because like, “This is just my skin.” I'm like, “Yeah, same here.” Like, or one kid asked, like, he's like, “Why are you brown?” And I was like, oh, like “I was born like this.” And he is like, “For your whole life?” I'm like, yeah. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Crazy. 

KIARA BROWN

Like, mind boggling. I'm sorry that it's so crazy, like, but I'm like, oh, it's cute. Like, you know, you just, and you can't, like, I feel like a lot of parents, they kind of tiptoe around it when their kids ask those questions.

Like, they're like, oh, like I don't know what to say. I'm like, just be honest about it. Teach them to be respectful. It's literally so easy. Like they're not asking because they’re afraid. They literally just wanna know, like, kids are very ignorant in an innocent way. They just wanna know, like, I'm like, just teach 'em. Like, it starts with the parental generation. Like they're the ones who have to teach their kids to accept everybody for–

DAWN TAYLOR

Let's just say that word again. It's so much about acceptance.

KIARA BROWN

Right?

DAWN TAYLOR

Acceptance. And not just judging ‘cause it's so, it is, it comes from. And how we talk about people and how we discuss people and how we look at things and yeah, like–

KIARA BROWN

And it's always like, oh, you know, like my dad was, you know, he didn't like black people growing up. So that's how I was taught. I'm like, yeah, maybe if you were taught differently, your views would be different. So I'm like, you gotta, like, you gotta teach your kids to accept and be respectful towards everybody. Yeah. And then the world will be slightly less violent, right? There will still be chaos everywhere, but at least that would be dealt with.

You would take care of a little tiny corner. Like everybody's like, oh, like the world would be so much more peaceful, a better place. I'm like, uh, not really, but if you got rid of one of the negative things, 

DAWN TAYLOR

You're hilarious.

KIARA BROWN

It'd be like 2% better.

DAWN TAYLOR

At least give would tweak for a few of us, right? Like some of us just a little bit.

KIARA BROWN

But everything else will still be there. Pollution. 

DAWN TAYLOR

I love it. 

KIARA BROWN

Global warming is still an issue.

DAWN TAYLOR

Love it. You crack me up. You totally cracked me up. I could not love it. I adore you more. I hope you know that. No, I, I hope that anybody listening to this today and hanging out with us today, that you heard something that triggered something, shifted an idea for you.

I mean, even if, ask the question different, like, where are your ancestors from, right? And did any of those like cultural parts from your ancestors come in? Like were you raised with any of those? Like, just even some simple questions like that on how to talk differently, teach your kids differently, and start to shift your thinking on it.

I think that we need to be more curious. We need to be less judgmental, but we also just need to give people a bit more grace. When it comes to their crazy judgments of us, ‘cause all hell. Some people are just actually ignorant and stupid and other people are actually just genuinely curious and don't know any better, right?

So, I hope you learned something. Please, please give us some feedback on this in the show notes or send me an email about this. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic and please tell your friends and other people, uh, show notes located @ thetaylorway.ca where you can also see a beautiful picture of Miss Kiara. I know there's a couple on there cuz she's a stunner. And all the contact information for her as well and her new business as she's starting doing prenatal care, which you're gonna–

KIARA BROWN

Can I even tag my business name? Give you the name of it? I don't think I did. 

DAWN TAYLOR

You didn't. But I'm gonna ask you for it cause I saw it in the notes you sent me. So subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast. If you love the show, please leave a rating and a review. And thank you so much, Kiara, for being here today. 

KIARA BROWN

Yes, thank you for talking with me about this. It was really fun actually. And therapeutic. 

DAWN TAYLOR

Good, and you're still welcome. The vulnerability was incredible and I love your heart.

And listeners, we'll see you in a couple weeks. Bye.

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