Dawn Taylor|7/17/2023

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey, hey, hey, welcome to the Taylor Talks. I am your host, Dawn Taylor, and today we are talking to the anonymous floating head on my screen. What I mean by that is we have an anonymous guest today who wants to dig into a pretty deep topic, but when you hear it, you're going to understand why we're not going to show her face or use her name or any of those things. Today's topic is co-parenting with a narcissist - what I wish I had

known. So before we get started, I want you to know that while this is totally anonymous, our guest today is so beautifully vulnerable and willing to talk to people that if you do need to talk to her or we're going to give you some resources in the show notes, all kinds of stuff so that we can help support people that are dealing with this because it is horrifi,c that you can contact me through my website, TheTaylorWay.ca, and we will make sure that you get access to anything and everything you need. So welcome to the show anonymous head.

Guest

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Dawn Taylor

That's your name now, I'm just going to call you the anonymous head.

Guest

I can roll with it.

Dawn Taylor

Anonymous floating head, so you and I were chatting before this call came on, and we were discussing what the title of the show should even be of this episode. And it was

the abuse doesn't end when the marriage ends. Co-parenting with a narcissist. What you wish you had known how to deal with it. All of these parts and pieces. We're going to do this episode a little bit different, A) because you are 100% going to guide this conversation, knowing that we need to hold the anonymity of everything so that there won't be any trouble, because you do have kids and all of these things that we need to protect you from. So what is it that you would love to chat about today? What would you like to talk to the people about?

Guest

Hey, well, basically, I can remember 1.1s when I made the decision to leave my marriage. I didn't know the term narcissist. I just thought he was a difficult person to deal with. Somewhat inflexible, a little bit volatile, a little bit mean. So, I wish I would have known, if I could have defined all of the behaviors, flash forward ten years reading these books and thinking, "Holy shit, this describes my life to a T." And I thought by leaving the marriage, I could just be. I could finally be free, but I what I didn't realize was that a narcissist, when you hurt their pride, they lash out at you 100 times worse and the kids were two and four at the time that I left, and trying to co-parent with somebody who doesn't communicate well, doesn't admit, "Okay, maybe you are right, maybe some compromise is necessary." Or, basically, all they want to do is torture you and make you look like the bad guy, and it never stops. And sometimes it gets quiet, sometimes it gets way, way worse, and they use the kids as pawns to torture you.

Dawn Taylor

Which is so gross. So, let's backtrack a little bit. How long were you married to this guy?

Guest

Eight years.

Dawn Taylor

So what were the red flags? Because I think so much of with a narcissist is the gaslighting

that goes on, right? And we start to doubt ourselves, like, is this really that bad? Is this actually what's going on? Is this actually their behaviors? I hear this all the time with

clients and really doubting it, right? Because it's been so pounded into their heads what the beliefs are that they're forced to believe. Do you know what I mean? They're so verbally and mentally abused in that way. What were the red flags in the marriage that even got you to get to the point where you were like, "No, I can't do this?"

Guest

The biggest message that I would hear repeatedly was, "You're such a bitch. You have no friends. You're so selfish." You're this, you're that. And the other thing. So the good friends that I did have, he would try to turn it around and tell stories that say, oh, well, so and so reached out to me and said this about you or so and so talked to me about this and your behavior about this, which is complete bullshit. 

Dawn Taylor

Just lies.

Guest

But just trying to, I guess, create doubt in my head. So I didn't have that kind of social safety net. And he's, oh, the neighbors don't like you because you're blah, blah, blah, or every little thing that, if he was having a bad day for something, he'd have to drag me down with him or push me further down so he'd feel better about himself. So, quite often, the message was at night, this marriage is a joke. You're such a blah, blah, blah. And one day I said, "Okay, then go. I don't know what to tell you. You're not happy." That was sort of the beginning of the end. Flash forward. I just realized that I was done and I never really felt safe with him. 

Dawn Taylor

Safety in what way? Mentally, emotionally, physically, relationally, financially.

Guest

All of it. All of it. It just didn't feel safe, and I thought, I would rather spend my life alone than have to deal with this. So, I was I was done. And we'd done the couple's therapy, which is awful, because when you don't realize you're dealing with the sort of human that has no boundaries and there's no end to their torturing, when you're vulnerable and you share stuff in therapy as you're supposed to do, they, when they see fit, they turn that information around and they throw it back in your face. Well, you can't be trusted because you think this, that, and the other thing. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, my word. 

Guest

There's no winning. There's no winning. So, yeah, we were just done, and I was blissfully happy at that thought to have my own. You know, it's funny, when I when I was on my own, I actually ended up having more disposable income because he wasn't spending all my money. 

Dawn Taylor

And you're like, "Hey, yeah." So you said you were done. What were the next actions? What were the next behaviors? And go as deep as you're willing to go and vulnerable as you're willing to go with this. But I know there's so many people out there that are in these marriages, in these situations or have recently left their spouse male, female, doesn't matter, that I don't know if they see it or if they're like "I don't know what this is, what these behaviors are." And I really want today to be, like, almost like a guide for people to be like, "Okay, this is what you can expect. This is what happened to me." What happened next?

Guest

All right, separation process. It went relatively smoothly thinking back, but just he'd get volatile over the silliest little things, like, 50-50 custody of the kids, that was fine. Splitting everything, 50-50, it really wasn't an issue. But then, he'd fly off the handle over well, "I had to replace the paper for the printer." Just stupid, ridiculous things, that he's

not a rational time for anybody truthfully, but it was extra not rational and there were times where he would make threats like, "I'm going to lawyer up and you're never going to see the kids again." Makes threats that I knew that that's not a thing. "You can't do that. No, it's not gonna work." The threats were there and lawyer up. They were ridiculous threats. But if you're in that moment and you think for a second, like, "Oh, my gosh, this person can actually hurt me in this way, it could be quite scary." But I was just able to say, "No, that's not a thing. You're being stupid." And afterwards, it's 50-50 parenting. Yeah, this part was funny. I was thinking about this the other day when it was week on, week off. So when I had the kids, I was focused on them. I never scheduled stuff with my friends. It didn't have extracurricular-type things. I made sure that I was around to parent them. My off week, I would go to the gym, hang out with my friends, got involved with some community activities, and got to know some really great people. And interestingly enough, I realized how many true friends I did have. And I tell you, it was a hell of a lot more than he did. So, I still have moments where I reflect on, yeah, "Who's the bitch who has no friends now?" When I have a really great support group. Anyway, going back to the week on, week off and the weeks where I didn't have the kids, quite often they were scheduled. I had a lot going on because you got to fit in all your errand running with the kids when they were there. Well, he had emailed me and said, I have something going on. Can you take the kids this night? And I said, "No, I have plans." And the response I got back was, "You're so selfish. This is where your kids tell me you're never around for them." and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is totally not true. I mean, you can't tell me a six year old is saying, mommy's never around. Mommy's not there. They have, no, those aren't the children's words. And the reality was, I was always there for now. It's just I couldn't pick up the slack for when he needed free childcare, essentially. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Guest 

But I want you to remember that comment about "Mommy was never there." Because those are the words that my 15 year old threw in my face when when she was trying to convince me that I was such an evil human. Later on, it was all of the words that he threw at me throughout the years whenever he was upset with me, and there's the gas lighting there. Because it's simply not true that he told the kids how evil I was because Mom's never there for you. She's involved with all of these clubs because her self-esteem is so low. She just can't deal with the reality of the divorce. I just don't understand how she can't move on. Like, just insane stuff that he would tell them. Absolutely insane. And the complete opposite of the truth. Because when I left, I was able to, I did a lot of work on myself, went on some retreats and kind of got to know who I was again and regained myself, my true sense of self. I was able to stand up and say, "No, I'm not doing that." And call him out on some of his BS, and he didn't like that. He didn't like that at all. He just amps up the abuse and the debauchery. So, that's, those are the early years of co-parenting and I kept telling myself, Just a few more years. Kids are getting older, they're more independent. There's less communications involved. Because when things would pop up where parents have to talk, one of the kids would have issues in school. Well, it didn't matter what was going on. It was always my fault. And I was always well, it was always my fault. There's absolutely no compromise and just threats and bullying and one instance, he wanted to travel with the kids and needed a letter, a consent letter, and of course, you have to go to the lawyer's office for that at the time. So, I said, "Okay, well, I have a day off the end of next week. I will go then." Well, that wasn't good enough. He needed it now. He didn't trust that I would go then. So, I get this letter from his lawyer saying, "You've refused, blah, blah, blah. If you don't supply this letter by such and such a date, then these will be the consequences." So, I just responded to the lawyer. There must be some misunderstanding, because I told him I would have it by this date. I have a lot going on right now. I'm not going to drop everything and rush to a lawyer's office. 

Dawn Taylor

Everything to torture you. 

Guest

Yeah. Just ridiculous tactics to cause stress. 

Dawn Taylor

So kids were two and four, and I have seen your relationship with your kids for years. Like, you and I know each other outside of this. And, one of the things that also happens with a narcissist parent is they choose a favorite.

Guest

Yeah, right. They always choose a favorite child, and then they have their scapegoat.

Dawn Taylor

But also with that, one of the and I know you and I talked about this when it first was really, really happening was parental alienation, and that, you had never like, this wasn't even a concept in your head. Like, of course, there's, he's an apple. It's this super toxic he's out to destroy you. He's out to hurt you. I've seen some of the text messages and emails he sent. Like, just a vile, vile, human. Let's be really honest here. Just not okay. Not okay. The things that have been said. But then the parental alienation took a turn. Are you willing to talk about that?

Guest

Absolutely. So it started. probably. the day that the separation started. I just didn't see the signs. Little things like, well, talking bad about me to the kids. And I, of course, couldn't see the details. I could see a little bit of the evidence, like, "Mommy's not around." Blah, blah, blah. He'd remarried and insisted that the kids call his wife mom or some form of fashion of mom, essentially to replace me. There were, I'm trying to picture the chart and all the examples of, you know, your kid is alienated if they exhibit the falling signs. I can't, off the top of my head, recall that. But now, looking back, it was all there and there are some great books out there that I wish I would have read just to get in front of it and to combat it, instead of thinking, "Oh, I'm just going to be the proper co-parent, and I'm not going to say anything bad about dad." Just going to carry on living my life and completely ignoring what he was doing over there. But then when my oldest came to me and said, okay, I want to go live with dad full time and just come visit every other weekend, I thought, "Okay, well, what would that look like?" And just know that I'm here if you want to go for dinner, if you want to do this, I'm always here, but that full time influence was extremely detrimental to to our relationship because I wasn't around 50% at the time. Just to kind of combat those messages and not so much combat those messages, but to, I guess, present the example she could see with her own eyes that that was not the reality of who I am.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say to actually show the proof of truth on the other side of it.

Guest

Yes. And so she got to a point where she said, "Well, I can't trust you. I can't trust you." And I'm just dumbfounded because I consider myself to be a very logical person. And none of what she was seeing made any sense at all, and teenage girls, they're tricky to begin with. But she gave me a letter spelling out all of the evil things that I had done or what she perceived that I had done and how I was never there and how everybody else was more important than her, and in my mind, I'm thinking back, "But what about the time I took you here, I dropped everything, I drove you to this place, and we experienced this these things, and we would hang out more than I think, more than anybody, her and I would hang out." So, it was just completely bizarre that she'd be coming out with these accusations, and "I can't trust you, so I just can't talk to you." And she didn't talk to me for almost two years. 

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Guest

Yep. 

Dawn Taylor

So in the middle of, like, and she was already how old was she when this, like really when?

Guest

Fifteen, sixteen. We just totally stopped talking to you for two years. 

Dawn Taylor

It's a total support of her dad. 

Guest

Yeah. And during that time, of course, dad would reach out to me at the start of when she said, "I'm not talking to you. I'm not coming over this weekend." Her dad would email me to say, "Oh, I don't know what's going on between you and and you and the child. What can I do to help? What do you think is going on?" So I would share. Stupid me, I would share some of my thoughts and say, "You know what? I would really like it if her and I could maybe go see a therapist together and work this out, because not talking is not a way of resolving an issue." That's not how you get over things. That's not how you figure things out. You communicate, you share your feelings, you share your hurts, and you work it out. Not the opposite. Well, he would take my words, and he would go to her and say, "Oh, we've had some really great talks, and mom thinks you need therapy." No, that's not what I said. I said, "I can go together to work on this and talk it out with the help of a professional." Not she needs therapy, but this is how he would twist my words around to make me look like an even worse bad guy. Well, that certainly didn't help, so I clued in pretty quick. Okay, well, I just have to give him absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. At this point, I was researching Parental Alienation because it was a coworker of mine said, oh, this sounds like Parental Alienation. She's also going through a really special divorce.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, boy. 

Guest

And I started looking into it. And I think I listened to every single YouTube video from the Parental Alienation symposium from over the years.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. 

Guest

And I thought, "Holy crap, this sounds like my life! This is exactly what's going on!" And so that's what I learned. You say nothing, you give them absolutely zero fuel that they

can turn around and hurt you. I think the term is gray rock, where it's. you're just an unemotional. You simply exist and you don't attract their attention so they can abuse you more. You just exist. So he sends me an email. It's maximum six word response. Maximum. If it can be done in one, it can be done in one. 

Dawn Taylor

And it can gauge. 

Guest

Do not share. Do not share anything about your thoughts, your feelings, none of it. 

Dawn Taylor

Nothing. Well, and what's amazing is the push-pull aspect of it, where they'll pull you and manipulate you to think that they've changed or maybe this isn't going to be different or this time, this time they're not going to act that way, and I remember hearing a speaker talk about it one time, and they said "I don't think you can actually fully understand the cruelty of a narcissist because it's so unfathomable to a normal, average, everyday person to what level they will go." 

Guest

Exactly.

Dawn Taylor

That you can't comprehend what is actually going on in their brain. You can't. So

as much as it's like, "Oh, but they're being nice to me." or, "Oh, but they're being kind to me." or, "Oh, but they're..." No, you are literally a pawn in their game, and they're moving you around the way that they need to to get the result that they need. 

Guest

Yeah. And during that time, over the two years that she was staying with her dad, she got angrier with me because of the things that he would say that I had done. So, every little thing that he perceived how I've wronged him, he would share that at the dinner table, I'm sure, to say, "Oh, well, mom is blah, blah, blah." Maybe I couldn't drive my youngest over to Dad's house at that time because who knows what the circumstances were. I could drive at this time, but not this. Because, interesting how I have a life and responsibilities too.

Dawn Taylor

What?

Guest

Exactly. You're supposed to drop everything and be 100% available because they're busy. And when you can't, just once, "You're so selfish, because you just can't accommodate." But, meanwhile they're less accommodating, such as life.

Dawn Taylor

Wild. So your oldest was the favorite?

Guest

Yeah. He would rely on her even from the beginning. I noticed a change in her behavior at the age of about six where she started acting more of a parent to her younger brother, which was out of character and odd. So he had already placed her in a higher level, I believe, to be her. They were equals. So they would have inappropriate conversations about responsibilities or, I guess, probably putting me down at the end of it. Or he was sharing too much of his personal life and just emotions with her that made her believe that she was higher up in the family hierarchy than what she was.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Guest

And that's how she began speaking to me. And I would have to, while we were still talking, I would quite often catch myself saying, "Hi, I'm Mom. Have we met? I got this. Settle down, know your role." Because she believed herself to be, more of a, well, more of a parental figure. 

Dawn Taylor

It's way different. 

Guest

The piece of crap that was just sort of to be dealt with. 

Dawn Taylor

So with having, in that relationship with your kids even, and their relationship with each other, your youngest relationship with dad, what did you see as the difference in those behaviors? So, obviously, the oldest, he'd elevated and put on this pedestal and put in this place of authority over the younger sibling and, like, very inappropriate. But what were the behaviors to your youngest? 

Guest

So, of course, with my daughter, to my son, she would boss him around in an inappropriate way because she felt like more of a parent. So for years, their relationship was well, they didn't get along, of course, and as far as the relationship with dad and my son, or our son, I should say, I always sensed there was a difficulty in them connecting, and I would often get emails from dad going, "There's something wrong with him because he's not engaging the family." The relationship was always strained, and essentially, he could do nothing right. He became the troublesome middle child. Um, when they, him and his new wife, had new babies and yeah, my son became yeah, essentially the troublesome middle child that didn't feel welcome in his own home over at Dad's house. You know, he didn't, he wasn't, I guess, the easy babysitter, so just sort of in the way. 

Dawn Taylor

Do you think he saw it, right? Like, as a child? My mom wasn't a narcissist, but my mom had favorites, very defined favorites, and it was so obvious. Like, ridiculously obvious to anyone who was watching that it was not me, right.

Dawn Taylor

And I knew it. And even if I didn't psychologically have, like, "Oh, my mother disconnected from me, and she didn't know how to love me." You're not thinking that as a kid. But I always, to the core of my being was like, "I don't think my mom will ever actually love me." I don't think that she'll like, I'll never be her chosen one. I'll never be that person. And it doesn't matter what I do. It's never going to be enough. So why am I trying so hard? 

Guest

My son had exhibited some pretty high anxiety sort of behaviors throughout the years. And when he decided, "You know what? Well, if my sister is going to live full time with dad, I think I'd like to stay full time with you." Every other weekend, drop them off, make sure you ever want to talk to dad, you ever want to go up for dinner, you're more than welcome. So I always kind of encourage that relationship. But he opted to stay with us and just visit every other weekend. And interestingly enough, the anxiety levels diminished substantially. They didn't go away entirely, but on a daily basis, he was able to cope. Got fewer calls from the principal 's office. I can remember one instance, this might help explain. He was too sick to go to school, and it was swap day, so I went to drop him off at dad's house. And you picture this six year old boy, standing on the front step, and I'm sitting in the car watching him going, “Why aren't you going in?” Well, poor kid couldn't remember the door code to let himself in. And he was terrified of ringing the doorbell because it would wake up the baby or whatever it was. Because after a while, I gotten out of the car and said, "What's going on?" And he said, "Well, I can't ring the doorbell." And he just stood there, terrified. And I just, it hurt my heart so bad to see this kid that was terrified to enter their own home. So, of course, being the parent, I did. I rang the doorbell twice. All right, stepmother. I've given him cough syrup. Here we go. So he, I think that explains a lot about how he felt and just not being entirely welcomed in that house he was afraid to go in. So, over the years, I've still encouraged him to go over to, every other weekend. If there's another opportunity, go here. But now, dad and the new family, they've taken multiple holidays. They've taken their new family to Disneyland. Is the other one welcome? Not so much. He wasn't even invited.

Dawn Taylor

So they've just totally alienated him.

Guest

Blatant exclusion. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

What about his relationship with his sister?

Guest

During the time where she didn't talk to me? I'm not entirely sure what what their relationship was, because my son still go over there every other weekend. Now we're starting to come out the other side. It's very, very positive. Good. 

Dawn Taylor

Let's talk about that process. It was an excruciating couple of years for you, to put it

mildly. 

Guest

Oh, yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Like, probably the understatement of the decade was that that was an excruciating few years. Can we talk through what went on and how it started to slowly shift? 

Guest

Okay. So the time that she was away, I spent a lot of time before I realized the science behind what had happened, just sort of trying to rationalize what could I have possibly done? Am I that bad of a parent that would call this and of course, you're afraid of how other people will see you. Because for people who do not understand this dynamic and this sort of abuse, they think, "Oh, kind of an awful parent." 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, the judgment. The judgment is ridiculous.

Guest

Yeah. So, you kind of watch, okay, who can I tell this to? Because people ask about your kids, right? And you can't say, "I actually don't know. I haven't talked to her in two years." 

Dawn Taylor

Right?

Guest

Yeah. So, you kind of got to navigate. Who can you trust, who will understand at the same time not be completely bearing the weight on your own? But it was interesting, the few people I chose to let in. And it was surprising, the number of people came back with, "Oh, my God, that happened to me. I have a daughter that I haven't seen in years. This is what happened." So I think it's a lot more common than people think.

Dawn Taylor

Which is one of the reasons why we're having this conversation. Yes. Is I don't think people have any idea how big of a deal this is and how big of a deal it is. In multiple ways, this happened to us. But from a weird standpoint, because my dad's new wife alienated us

from him, right? Like, this alienation piece is so huge, and people have no idea

how many times this goes on and no one's talking about it. 

Guest

Okay, flash forward to the coming back. So, I was planning to marry my long term boyfriend, who had been in the picture for many years, almost a decade. Over a decade at this point.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say, you had a very long dating relationship before the wedding. 

Guest

So we were finally going to get married, and my daughter, at first, was, I want to help plan it. I wanted this, I wanted that. I can do the decorating because we were just going to have something small. And she went from that to, I think, a month later, of not talking to me and needing all this space. Well, flash forward a couple of years or a year and a half. And she didn't actually come to the wedding or she said she wasn't going to come to the wedding. She stopped by after this ceremony, just when we were having a reception with a bunch of friends and family. She stopped by after her work to drop off a card.

Dawn Taylor

Crazy. 

Guest

She was convinced to stay by a bunch of family members, my family and my now-husband's family to stay and visit because there was a bunch of people there

that she hadn't seen in quite a long time. And she did. I think she was reminded

that, "Oh, no, wait. If mom is such a selfish bitch that has no friends, why are all these people around? Why are all these people?" And I think some of the people there, they didn't share with me all of the details, but they had a couple of drinks and said, "I had a good talk with your daughter."

Dawn Taylor

Good. 

Guest

Maybe call her out on her behavior or whatever it is. S,o after we got back from the honeymoon, her and I, we went for dinner and we wandered around a mall and had a good talk, and she was in grade twelve talking about university, and she said, "Well, you know, dad doesn't want to let me go away to university because of my anxiety, and he doesn't feel I'll be able to handle it." So, I was able to have some pretty frank conversations with her to say, if anybody can handle this, it's you. "You are the most independent. And remind her that if you want to go to school in South Africa, guess what? You can go. Because you're a grown ass adult. You don't need anybody's permission for anything at this point. This is ridiculous." So, just our house became the voice of "No, you can do this. This is going to be awesome. This is the best experience." During this time, she was also seeing a therapist. And I think there must have been some breakthroughs and some, I guess some eye opening and some seeing of what the reality of the situation was because just her wording, I see that a lot that goes on in that side of the family is quite toxic. I see that, "You know, that dad doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about with university because he never graduated high school." Whereas our side of the family, we were all able to share experiences with her to say, "Oh, my gosh, first year dorm life. It was so fun. We did this. I met so many friends." And so we were able to instead of hold her back and control her, we were "No, go, see." So, she got accepted in a university that was quite far away, and I was absolutely thrilled because she can see the world not through my influence or her dad's influence, but see the world with her own eyes and make her own decisions and live. I can remember people saying, "Oh, doesn't it? How do you feel about her moving across the country?"

Dawn Taylor

"Best thing ever!" 

Guest

Fly, little bird, fly!

Dawn Taylor

She needs to escape that influence.

Guest

Yeah, and honestly, it was the best thing for her to get out of that influence and just

meet other people and. You know, when you you're the out of the toxic house and

you can have conversations with friends and when you're around people who say, "Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense, you know, how did that happen?" Right? Because you don't know what you don't know. And she thought that was normal. 

Dawn Taylor

You think you know it all at that age. 

Guest

So over the last year, she's grown up so much. She's a completely different person. The relationship she has with her brother is 100% different, and they have adult sounding conversations between the two of them. 

Dawn Taylor

And how is your relationship going with her? 

Guest

It is 100% better. Actually, during her last second half of the year in university, she ended up her roommate, it turns out, was quite toxic and had some of those narcissistic type traits. And I was able to guide her through to say, "Oh, no, do not give her anything, and don't expect her to change because she won't." And it was a really great book In Sheep's Clothing. That's the one that I read that made me think, "Oh, my God, this is what this person is a monster. And he's never going to change because he's a monster." So I recommended her read that book, and it. I was sitting back going, okay, well, this will teach you a lot about your roommate, and if you happen to learn some wisdom about other people in your life but just people in general. And we've had great conversations in how to handle difficult situations with the narcissist in her life, which was the roommate, and don't expect them to change, and she's going to try to turn your friends against you. This is normal. But she's not this, yeah, that's what they do. She's not going to change. All you can do is get in front of it and, you know, just continue being you and your friends. They'll see. Or maybe they'll be one of her flying monkeys that just buys into the crap. But at the end of the day, you just got to be your authentic self and do not say more than one sentence to the roommate. Do not share anything. Explain to her what Gray Rock was. And so I got texts and calls on a regular basis. "Mom, I need your advice. What do you think of this?" Which to go from a teen that won't talk to you to daily texts.

Dawn Taylor

Was there was there ever a piece of you that was scared to respond to her, that might potentially alienate her again? Not responding to her, but in how to respond to her, what to say, because it's such a sensitive, like a very almost brand new relationship starting again.

Guest

Yeah. Well, we had really bonded, especially over this, how to navigate the narcissist. And I started sharing some YouTube videos about with one of my favorite, Dr. Romney. She's fantastic. So I would share a couple of links to say, oh, I just listened to this one. 1s I think it really applies. There was one video where it mentioned parental alienation. And we

have never addressed the year and a half, two years not talking. She says she doesn't remember, but I know, based on, again, listening to the Alienation Symposiums, every single episode of them, that when kids, when they come out of the alienation, they start to see they're filled with an incredible amount of guilt. And I will not make that worse. So the stance that I have taken is, "I will always be here. I will always love you." If someday, when she's 30 or 40 and we have a glass of wine and she wants to share when she's ready, what she went through. I will listen, but I will not push it. I've had friends to say. "Well, have you talked to her about this? What? About the closure?" And I said, "I don't need closure on this. This is hers that she needs to work through." I will not push it because I know, I understand the thought process, and she's a victim just as much as me, if not worse. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100%. 

Guest

So, I'm not going to rub her nose in it.

Dawn Taylor

Every kid ever. Thank you. 

Guest

Well, knowledge is power, right? What's interesting now, though, with my son, the challenges are only getting worse with his dad. His dad has, at this point, all but disowned him. Which, he's heartbroken.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say it's like the biggest double edged sword. Like a piece of you is

like, good, be away from him and his influence and all of that. But it's also the world's biggest rejection. 

Guest

I had dropped him off at dad's house for a weekend, and just a few hours later, dad

returned him. Boggles the mind of how a parent could ever do that to a kid. The

abuse, it never stops. I heard one day, um, trying to co-parent with a narcissist, it's like walking a tightrope with an elephant on your shoulders. And it's entirely true. Yeah. And I always just thought it was well, he was just a difficult person. But it goes beyond that. There's no end to the tactics, to the games. That book In Sheep's Clothing, it talks about the narcissistic tactics, and I think there are nine of them. I have received emails where he covers seven of the tactics in one paragraph, between the lying and the gaslighting and the projecting in one paragraph. And now that I know and I understand and I've come to expect it, I can receive those emails and I can sit back and I can laugh and go, "Oh, my gosh, so pathetic. You never change." And I respond with six words to say, no. That's not what I asked. All I need is a yes or no.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, so and for anyone listening in the show notes, we will put links to the books, the YouTube videos, everything that has been mentioned here, so you can go check it out yourself. The symposium, all of it. Looking back, two things. One, would you do it again? Because I've often heard from people that it's easier to just stay in the marriage until the kids are raised, even when you're with a narcissist, to just suck it up until they're out of the house and then leave. So would you do it again? 

Guest

Oh, my God. I'd still be married to him. 

Dawn Taylor

But looking back at everything that's gone on over all of these years, the abuse, all of it, just all of the stuff has gone down, would you still leave and make the same decision?

Guest

100%. You would have killed my soul. I see pictures of myself from when I was still married. And when you look at somebody in their eyes and you can just tell that they're living, breathing, walking, talking dead. That's who I was. But when I let the change was almost instant. Like, I had people that I'd seen down the hallway in my work building, I'd seen several times. But when I left and I started well, I got myself back. They would wave and smile and say hello. I was a totally different person. I couldn't imagine it still being that person and being pushed down in every way, like what I've been able to do and achieve and the involvements that I've had with really great organizations that none of that would have been possible if I stayed. None of it. So, like I said, I was better off alone than with him. It just so happens that I've met my Mr. Perfect. Somebody where you can have rational conversations with, you can talk about your feelings.

Dawn Taylor

Whaaat? That's not allowed in a marriage! 

Guest

Back in the marriage, my first marriage, if I was having a blue day, which, as an introvert, sometimes I just need some me time. I need to read my book in the bathtub, I need to be myself to recharge my batteries. And even more I did that, it'd really get nasty and freak out.

Dawn Taylor

You left off talking about how with your new you, getting back to who you were and finding yourself again and having a soul really again.

Guest

Yes. And when you put that kind of healthy energy into the universe, you meet really great people, and people just sort of well, yeah, it was transformational opportunities opened up for me. It was completely different. And even the neighbors that supposedly thought I was so evil, they come up to me and said, "Oh, we never liked him." But, also there were other people that they were on his side and would spy on me. That was also funny too, but you get to know who friends are.

Dawn Taylor

Well, and what's interesting is we all have narcissistic tendencies. Right? And this word is thrown around so freely these days, but it's the level of narcissism, and when somebody is very narcissistic, they actually don't believe anything's wrong with them.

Guest

Oh. They don't.

Dawn Taylor

Like, actually genuinely do not think anything's wrong. So it's interesting when someone who will even come to me and they're like, I'm pretty sure I'm a narcissist. And I'm like, well, you might have very high narcissistic tendencies, but you wouldn't be here talking to me if you were a narcissist, because you don't actually think there's anything wrong, right? It's so mind blowing to me, and it's such an issue, and people have no idea.

Guest

So to answer your question, I would 100% do it again, I just wish I knew from the beginning what kind of monster I was co-parenting with, and I would have adopted the strategies of gray rock from the very beginning instead of getting involved and trying to justify and rationalize my actions. So much energy over years has been wasted or ridiculous email chains trying to convince him that or whatever he happened to be arguing with me at the time, I just would have went, "Okay." and disengaged.

Dawn Taylor

Do you think it will ever stop, like, as the kids are growing up and they're moving out of the house and becoming adults, or will he forever torture you?

Guest

I'm sure there will be opportunities to be honest, I really feel bad for his current life.

Dawn Taylor

I was gonna say I was gonna say, like, I can't.

Guest

She'll have to pick up the slack because there is less opportunity now with the older, she'd be living on her own, and I guess the dealings will whatever involvement my son wants to have with him, they want to work it out. They can work it out. I'm not getting involved with that. I will never get involved with that. It's not my monkeys, not my issue. And there is absolutely nothing good that can come of it from further opportunity for abuse for myself. So I'm just not, um, but he's old enough. He can reach out. Kids have cell phones. They can call, they can hold. It doesn't need to involve me. So, someday ,maybe, there's less opportunity, certainly on a day to day basis. Not looking forward to weddings.

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say weddings and grandkids and all of those things.

Guest

Yeah. Not looking forward to that. We will get through it'll. Be we will live.

Dawn Taylor

And because you have a massive support system behind you.

Guest

Exactly.

Dawn Taylor

And a team of people that, we all know the truth.

Guest

My now-husband is fantastic and we can talk about all of these issues and I can be upset and it's okay. It's a healthy relationship. So, yeah, you can pay me to go back to that for like $10 million. I'm going to run. Run!

Dawn Taylor

Well, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much, anonymous floating head, for being here today and for being so open and vulnerable about this and talking through this and hopefully giving people the courage, that little glimmer of hope that they can get through this, too. That if they're dealing with the alienation, there's ways around it, there's options, things can change, even if it's been years, and especially that it was worth it, that at the end of the day, it was 100% worth it.

Guest

And another message, if you're going through the alienation, just know that it's not your kids fault. They're not doing it to you, they're being abused. They're just as much as victims. So, don't hold it against them. And always be there. Always be available. Keep your social media open so they can reach out and find you, even if it's years later, because you never know.

Dawn Taylor

And it's amazing how, as adults. We start to see these things right? The farther and farther we are away from the influence of those parents, the influence of our childhood, the influence of the situational things, we start to see truth in things we start to see the other side. We start to have our perspective. Our perspective changed and often just based on what we see around us, but what our friends, our family, or people have experienced and it's never too late. There's always options. There's always, always, just leave those doors open. So, thank you again for those of you listening. I hope that you heard something today that really hit you a little hard. And I don't say that in a mild way. I mean, it in that you maybe need to shift something in your relationship with someone in your life, or that you've realized that you're not alone and that you need to make a big decision in your world. If you need support with that, please reach out. TheTaylorWay.ca is my website. Please please connect. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing topic. Please share this episode with people you think might be in this situation and don't know it, because it might shine a light on something for them. But, also check out the show notes at the TheTaylorWay.ca for more information and for all the contact information for me, because you don't get to know who today's guest is. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you love the show, please leave a rating and review. See you guys in a few weeks. Bye.

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