Dawn Taylor| 25/09/2023

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

Hey, hey, hey, guys. Welcome to the Taylor Way. Wait. It is me, your host, Dawn Taylor. And we're going to just give you a heads up today on this episode. As you know, if you've listened to my podcast before, you know that we're talking about the things no one talks about. We're diving deep into topics and some are light, some are heavy, some are a little bit in between. But a warning on today's is we are going to be talking about suicide. We are going to be talking about grief and loss and all of those things. And if I get emotional, bear with me. If my guest gets emotional, bear with him. Um, but this is a very important conversation that needs to happen. It's an incredibly important conversation that needs to happen. And so today we are going to have it. So before we dive in, I want to tell you a little bit about our guest. Kyle is an incredible man who has lived in Edmonton his entire life. And he is, he's dedicated to working with youth and he has been for over 30 years. Like, that's insane. He has been with You Can Youth Services since 2002, and in that time it's grown from a one-person office to being a leading organization in youth work and transitional youth employment programming. He is slowly learning to understand grief as he unfortunately lost his youngest son to suicide in April of 2021. And it is a profoundly devastating journey that he has been on and as he learns to navigate life without Luke. So we are here today to talk about this, to dive into the stigma around it, the grief around it, and the fact that love is really fucking hard sometimes. So, let's welcome Kyle to the show. Hi, Kyle.

Kyle Dube

Hey, Dawn. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

Dawn Taylor

It is so good to have you here. It's these topics, right? It's topics that we wish people talked about. So, right off the bat. We're going to just dive right into this. I'm going to tell you guys right now, if you're listening to the show to hear what happened, how it happened, all of that stuff, shut it off and walk away because you're not going to hear. I've said from day one, this show would never be about a sensationalism thing. But let's start with when this happened and what it was like to go through it and how you heard. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah. So, um, I've been on a, you know, I've been on a couple of podcasts before and done a couple conversations about this. As you know, Dawn, and the way that I kind of started is, um, April 4th, 2021. Um, it was Easter Sunday and it was a very normal day in our home. Um, it was during the midst of COVID and, and we probably shouldn't have had my in-laws over because of all the restrictions, but we did. 

Dawn Taylor

A little rule breaker.

Kyle Dube

Yeah. And it was just a normal day in many aspects. And my, my wife and I, uh, we're here. I have three sons, um, Liam, Jax and Luke. Liam, my oldest was home. Jax, and my middle was playing in the WHL at the time, so he was actually out of town. And Luke, my youngest, was home and we just spent the day visiting and then just doing our normal things and went to bed. Um, so I always start that way just to say it was just normal. Everything. Everything was just so exactly what we were so used to. And, um. Easter Monday. I woke up. Um, we're prepping because my middle boy had a game that night. Uh, so we were going to all watch it together and that some time when we all went to bed, my youngest son, Luke, who was 16.5 years old at the time, uh, took his own life. Um, and it was the day that, of course, changed our lives forever. It changed the lives of many forever. And it was the absolute worst day imaginable. And that's when, um, what I'll call my grief walk began. And, and it was. It was just the absolute worst. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. So you get hit with the worst news of your entire life. The thing that no parents ever thought that they would have to deal with.

Kyle Dube

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

One of the things that we had talked about in advance and discussing this is the stigma that's out there on death by suicide. Right? And the fact that it's there's shame attached to it and guilt attached to it. And people have this idea that “Oh, well, they must have been on drugs or they must have been drunk or they must have been dealing with something horrible or there was some insane trauma or whatever else.” And you guys were just like this normal, happy, loving family. I mean, you do youth work like you, like you would have seen the red flags kind of idea, right? And you had no idea. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, so, I like to think we were, you know, and don't like to think. I know we're a really good family. Yeah. My wife and I. And you're going to hear the word relentless a lot as we talk, because, as you know, I use that word a lot at my work. I use that word a lot in my life. And we were relentless parents, um, very involved in all three boys’ lives from their schooling activities to their education, to their social lives. We have a great village, you know, great grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, friends, incredibly involved in a lot of different things in our community. And. Luke, oh, truthfully, none of my boys have dealt with addictions. They haven't dealt with what I would consider to be heavy mental illness like health issues. Mental illness issues. And Luke, from everything, I mean, you know, for our 16.5 years with Luke was, was a pretty normal dude. Very, very athletic, you know, did well in school, had a great group of friends. Um, and truthfully though, could be up and down. But I would suggest that that's like every 16.5 year old, you know. And you're right, I've taken suicide intervention training three or 4 or 5 times in my career, you know, I've dealt with this type of stuff in my career. And although Luke had been down for a couple few weeks prior to him taking his life, there were no massive red flags. There was nothing that made me stop in my tracks and be like, “Oh my goodness.” And we were doing all the normal things that we would do for all three of our boys if they were going through a bit of a down spiral time where, you know, given a little more attention, a little more love, more talking, all that tech stuff. And there was a darkness within Luke that we obviously did not understand. We didn't fully see it, and he obviously couldn't fully express it because he was talking to us. Um, but he couldn't fully express the depth of what that was and what that looked like for him and you know, well, I say that this was a shock of a lifetime. That's the understatement of my life. And I would suggest that that would be the same for pretty much everyone that knows us. You know, there are certain situations that you know of. I'm sure that that I know of where, you know, if somebody were to die by suicide, you never want to say, “Oh, that's not surprising.” 

Dawn Taylor

But, let's be honest, it's that feeling of like, “Oh, it's not a shock.” It's not a jarring shock often.

Kyle Dube

Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. A jarring shock. I think it's always shocking. But I think that the jarring shock for probably a small amount of people, though, is, you know, it's but that again, we didn't see any of that. And so there is, um, there is shame associated with suicide, right? Because, listen, there's so much guilt that we go through, Dawn, that it's incredible. And that's going to be with us forever. I have a thousand questions and they'll never be answered. They'll never be answered. And that's a very, very difficult way to live life. But, where my heart breaks is, obviously for us. My wife, my other two sons, all our village. But my heart breaks mostly for Luke. Obviously it would because he was in so much turmoil and pain internally that he ended his life and it's a pain that's indescribable. I literally cannot describe the pain that we go through every day from April 5th, 2021. 

Dawn Taylor

So, for anyone listening to this who is considering taking your life, who knows someone who is. Please, please, please, please, please share this with them. And I want you to hear these words. So, right before we started this conversation, now I'm going to get emotional. I was telling Kyle that I have been there and I remember laying in a hospital bed when they found me and they saved me, and I lived in, every part of me believed that I had failed. And I was so angry. And if you've read my book, you know that I talk about this in there and hearing Kyle's words, even for me, feel like hearing a father's words to a child, of what they went through and what that looks like. And I just want to challenge anyone who's listening, like, hear that. The vulnerability of what he's even saying, right? Because it is an indescribable pain when you lose someone like that.

Kyle Dube

You know, it's the way I described the first, I'll say 2 to 4 weeks. And you may have heard me describe it this way before, Dawn. It's like when you watch a movie and it's some movie and a bomb goes off. And the people that survived that bomb there, there's a ringing and there's their ears and it's confusing and they don't really know where they are. And they're disorientated. That's kind of what it was like for the first month until that fog cleared, but I'll be honest with you, I still feel that way often. There's times where both my wife and I will say to one another, we just can't. It's almost. it's you know, we're almost two and a half years in and it's still surreal. It it it. It's still, none of it makes sense. And you really feel like we cannot believe that this is our lives right now, and grief is a very, very hard thing and grief is something that I believe I had an acquaintance. You know, grief was an acquaintance of mine prior to dying because I had lost some people in my life. And it was hard. But until you lose a child and, you know, people say, well, “You know, you can't compare.” Well, you can compare. You know, I lost my mom not even a year after Luke to cancer. She was 67. She shouldn't have died. I love my mom so much. And truthfully, I don't think I've started to process it yet because my mom, who I loved so much, is not my greatest loss. You know, Luke's death, the loss of a child. It's the unnatural order of life, right? And unfortunately, with suicide. Um, you don't have something to blame. Well, that's a lie. Some suicides, you do. You know, maybe it's addiction. Maybe there was an overdose. Maybe, whatever. Maybe it's heavy mental illness, whatever that is, but it's not. You know, a very, very good friend of mine lost his son in the Humboldt crash and he said, “Kyle, I don't know who where you put your anger.” Because for him, he you know, the way for him, it's he was putting it all at a truck driver or a trucking industry or whatever. I have a friend who lost his son to cancer. He puts all of his anger towards cancer. Um, Luke wasn't bullied. Luke wasn't sick. Luke didn't have addictions like. I don't know. 

Dawn Taylor

None of the normal.

Kyle Dube

No. And this is some of the stuff that you and I've talked about where I almost feel at times like a hypocrite saying be relentless with your kids because we are relentless with our kids and we were with Luke, and yet Luke still took his own life. But, I still think the strong message is you have to be relentless with your kids. You have to be. And you know what? Let's not even say your kids. Let's say anybody in your life, anybody in your life who you have that. And you know who you think might or might not be doing well. Show up. Show up, be relentless. And that as a parent, you know, let's be honest, a lot of young people, they don't want to talk to their parents. That's normal. You didn't want to. I didn't want to. But I think that we have to be annoying. We really do.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, I like that. Yeah.

Kyle Dube

They don't want. They don't want to talk to you. Oh, well, still knock on their door. Bang on their door. Go lie on their bed. Go talk to them. Even if they don't talk back, eventually it's going to sink in. And we did all that stuff. Yeah. And it's it's. Yeah. So I'm kind of rambling here, but–

Dawn Taylor

No, no, it's okay. Oh, don't ever apologize. It's grief. It's words. Don't apologize for them. Break down what relentless means to you.

Kyle Dube

I think there's some basic things around like, you know, just don't ever give up. You know, when you fall down, you know, you get back up. Um, show up all the time. Be there all the time. Much easier said than done. Right? It is. I think a great definition of it is, be a pain in the ass. You know, I really believe that that is being relentless. And you can take any aspect of your life and be a pain in the ass relentlessly. Um, you know, at work, you want to do better and work well, be relentless, you know, again, show up, do your best, all that type of stuff. But I really do believe it is pursuing a relationship in a healthy way. You know, and pursuing it because it matters that much. Now, that's what I believe it is. And interestingly enough, Dawn, the most relentless thing in my life is grief. 

Dawn Taylor

It's not leaving you alone.

Kyle Dube

It'll never leave. It will never quit. That's what being relentless is. You never quit and grief will never quit.

Dawn Taylor

Grief is an interesting one. It won't ever quit. But we get bigger than it. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah. I'm not there yet. I think for me, what it is, is learning to adapt your life around it, right? It's like a chronic physical pain where you have to adapt your life around that and you just end up getting used to it, really. But that's what grief is to me is learning to adapt your life around it. Because, listen, two and a half years in, there have been some shifts. There's a lot of things that I'll say I and we can do now that we couldn't do a year ago. Yeah, there's still a lot, there's truthfully, there's some things I can't do now that I could do a year ago, which is interesting. But there's, there's different shifts, but it's because we're learning to live with it. You know, there's a song, I forget what it's called and, oh, I forgot to call. But the lyrics are essentially the only cure for the pain is the pain. And that's it. You just, it's a grind every day. I wish somebody could say, listen, on, you know, March 15th, 2029, you'll feel so good. You'll feel the way you felt that on April 4th, 2021, the day before Luke took his life. But that's not going to happen because if that were to happen, then I go, “Okay, put my head down, grind it out. Let's go.” But that's not going to happen. You know, I've read that the depth of your grief is the reflection of the depth of your love for that individual.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, it is. 

Kyle Dube

And that makes sense to me, you know? I mean, listen, there's tragedy all over the place. There is. But if you're not connected to it or you don't have that love connection to it, it kind of doesn't affect you, right? 

Dawn Taylor

Not in the same way. Not even close. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah. I mean, you just kind of. The world moves on, right? But when you're in the midst of this, your world doesn't move on. How do I move on from my sweet, beautiful, perfect Luke because he was my boy.

Dawn Taylor

He was your baby.

Kyle Dube

How do you move on from that? You can't. So what we're trying to do is somehow move forward by still carrying him but it's really hard. And then there's all those things that go with it. And we can get into this if you want. All the things around the guilt. You know

Dawn Taylor

You're willing to go there. Let's go there.

Kyle Dube

The living constantly with the “If I would have done this, I should have done this. Maybe I could have done this.” Like all these different things. I literally think back to, okay, when he was, when he was three years old and this happened, maybe I should have reacted this way instead of that. Like you literally question every single thing you did as a parent. Everything. That's hard.

Dawn Taylor

Have you, so some of the stigmas, right? So many of the stigmas attached to suicide are that, right? Is that there's, you know, a judgment from the outside and I've heard this before from people where there is a death by suicide, which is really a death by mental health. That, you know, people on the outside are like, “Oh, wonder what happened in their family? Wonder what was going on with their kid? Oh, I bet you they were not good parents or whatever.” You know, like you hear those things. And I've often said that like my parents struggled with me, but my parents were phenomenal parents. They were amazing parents. They were amazing grandparents, amazing friends and family. Maybe not to me, but everyone else, right? And it wasn't that, like, I actually truly to the core of my being believed that I was doing them a favor. Like it was an act of love from me, right? Which is what's so wild. Right. And so when I heard that before, you know, or even like when a celebrity dies in that way, you know, all of the judgments and the stuff that's attached to it. And I'm like, “No.”

Kyle Dube

It's interesting because, you know, you and I have talked about this a little bit where I don't know if we've been judged. You know, I'm assuming I've been because I'm assuming, um, listen, we've all been there. We've all heard of somebody dying by suicide. And right away you kind of go into this, “Oh, like, why? How?” Like you start asking all the questions, too, and then you really start analyzing, like, you know, where they come from, what happened in their lives, all that type of stuff. And so I'm assuming maybe that happened to us. But honestly, if it has, I haven't experienced it. And I don't know if that's because. I refuse to be judged. You know, And I'm not trying to be all like, “Oh, I'm so strong, I won't be judged.” But I just. I just look at it and I and truthfully, part of my attitude is and I know we can swear on here, part of my attitude is if you want to judge me like, “Fuck you, like, go ahead.” You know what I mean? Yeah. 

I know even though we all blame ourselves. And even though I blame myself and a lot of people go, “Well, you can't blame yourself.” 

Dawn Taylor

It's easier said than done, right.

Kyle Dube

Like, rationally. I know it's not my fault. I know it's not anybody's fault. Yeah, but emotionally, that's almost impossible to for me anyways to separate the two. But I know that when Luke, of course we had, you know, people were being notified the school Luke was in grade 11 and they reached out to us and said, “How do you want it?” Because I don't know. I didn't know any of this. Um, or maybe I did, but I was in such a fog that they would put out, like, a notice, right? Like school, division wide. If a child dies, they do that. And they asked us that. They asked us the language. Like if we were okay. If they put the words like how he died, the word suicide. And we huddled up and within like a minute we're like, well, yes, like, my question was more like, “Well, why wouldn't she?” And maybe that's just the way we are. Like, we wouldn't like to think we wouldn't judge others for it, but our initial thought was “No. Like, we're not ashamed of Luke.” I'm so proud of my son. I'm not ashamed of him. And I'm not ashamed of what he did, and our next thought was maybe this will get people talking. You know, maybe this will actually have parents, you know, you've seen it many times. I've done it and said it whenever young people have died or I'm like, “Well, I'm going to hug my kids a little tighter tonight.” I think that's great. That's good. But you got to do more than that. Suicide is not an easy thing to talk about it, like who wants to talk about suicide, right? I think it's so important for families to discuss it. Not every day. Not like, you know, hey, every day at supper. Let's talk about it. But I think it's good to be checking in with your kids and with people in general. I really do believe that. And so that's another reason why we said no. You let people know that Luke died by suicide and then we kind of went a little bit public with it. On social media and stuff like that, and it honestly wasn't a garner attention to us or garner attention to, you know, it was more garner attention around please go talk, go If you are suicidal, go talk to somebody or if you know somebody that you think might be go talk to them. And yeah, but there is that stigma and that shame, right? There's all that person screwed up. And I agree with what you say. Suicide is death by mental illness. And obviously Luke had mental health issues that we did not recognize. 

Dawn Taylor

Can I say, not even that you didn't recognize, but that he did really well? 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, I think he did. I think he did.  I've met other people who have been in your situation, Dawn, who, um, who attempted and it would be a similar story. I thought I was just going to rid the world of something bad. You know, like, I thought this would be better for everybody else and if that isn't mental?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it's mental illness. It's 100% it's mental illness. But I also think that we are, some people just internalize and some of us do just keep secrets. I remember when my book came out and talking to a few people, one of my family members was like, either I was the worst -  It was my brother. He's like, “Either I was the worst brother or you were the world's greatest secret keeper. Which was it?”

Kyle Dube

Right. 

Dawn Taylor

And I said, honestly, probably a bit of both. But I'm an incredible keeper. Secret keeper.

Kyle Dube

Yeah, it's an interesting way to look at it because, um, Luke was a pretty quiet guy, you know? I mean, Luke was hilarious around here. Like, you know, Luke would talk and talk and talk and talk it with his buddies. He would talk, but for the Luke, Luke was, as he went into his teenagers anyways, he just became more introverted. But not abnormally. Oh, and I mean, my oldest boy is quite introverted, yet he's one of the funniest people I've ever met in my life.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that's introverts. We're hilarious. You just got to get us comfortable.

Kyle Dube

That's so interesting that you would say us introverts, because people, in my opinion, don't know who's an introvert and who isn't an introvert because I would not look at you as an introvert. Right? So, you know, but I would say you could look at Luke as, as he was an introvert, but that, that's a strength. You know, I also used to have. And I really did have the attitude that, well, suicide was weak and selfish. 

Dawn Taylor

There's a stigma around it.

Kyle Dube

Huge stigma.

Dawn Taylor

Huge, massive stigma around it.

Kyle Dube

And I guess it took my son, taking his own life, too. Luke was not weak. Luke is one of the strongest, most bullheaded people I've ever met in my life. 

Dawn Taylor

You really mean he was your son?

Kyle Dube

He was my son. Luke was so relentless. If Luke wanted to do something, he was relentless. He was strong. And you know what? Was Luke selfish? Yeah, because every 16 year old is selfish. But if Luke would see, if Luke would see the carnage and the aftermath of what has happened here? Luke would have never done that. He just because Luke wasn't selfish. So again, I look at it, it was described to me this way, and I like the analogy of it was, it's a brain attack. You know, it's, it's like a heart attack or, you know, his brain failed him. His brain failed him and he couldn't not see past that moment. 

Dawn Taylor

You know, can we just pause there for a second? Because I think more people need to hear that is even when it comes to mental health, when it comes to any of this. He had a brain attack. Right? Like, his brain failed him. And if you're lucky enough that in your depression or in your dark place or in your trauma or in your, whatever that you do, reach out to someone and you do find someone that can work with you and you do. You do find that glimmer of hope that allows you to fight for yourself. You're actually lucky.  Like, you're dreamily lucky. Because a lot of people don't believe they're worth fighting for. A lot of people have had that ingrained in them. A lot of people have been gaslit to believe that we're actually okay when we're not, to believe that we're not broken when we feel broken. You know, I think that more people need to look at it as a brain break, right? It's like a heart attack, but in your head.

Kyle Dube

Right, and also looked at it where like, you know, I'll use me as an example. I'm not the healthiest guy. I smoke. I'm, you know, got some extra pounds. I could lose some, you know, some would say I'm a heart attack waiting to happen. Well, if you think about it that way and then you just think about mental illness. Well, Luke knew that he wasn't doing well. And then like a heart attack. You don't know when it's coming? No. And I actually, talking to a couple other people that I know that have gone through this, it just happened. It was just, you know, they obviously planned it out and this and that, but it was like. There was no for them. There was no turning back. And that, to me, is a brain attack. Yeah, it really is. The brain failed them and believe that that happens to many people. We take their lives, you know, that are not strung out on drugs or completely hammered or, you know, that's what I believe, and it's brutal. It's brutal.

Dawn Taylor

So how has it shifted? Your relationship with your other boys. How has it shifted your relationships with people closest to you? When this deep, crazy love has hurt you so hard. 

Kyle Dube

How? 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, I think there's been over these last two and a half years for you.

Kule Dube

Yeah, I think there's a few things to unpack there, I think, with, with my other boys. Um, and, you know, I'll never tell my wife's story or my other boys story because– 

Dawn Taylor

Absolutely not.

Kyle Dube

Because I can’t understand what they're going through. Right? Like our relationships were, were very different with Luke because, you know, father to son, mother to son, brother. But as far as the other boys go, I mean, we are hypersensitive now. Oh, what's happening in their lives and. And that that's hard. Like, it can at times almost be I don't want to say debilitating, but it does turn into a thing where, you know, it's just a constant worry. Because, again, like, this wasn't supposed to happen to Luke. And so it and that's a tough way to live, and I actually feel bad for the boys sometimes because think it's probably a tough way for them to live knowing that mom and dad are literally, you know, mean they're 20 and almost 22 now and, you know, there's times where you feel like there are three and five years old because you just want to. You want to be at every single moment of their lives to make sure that they're okay. And so that's tough. Um, you know, I check in a lot with those boys and they're very gracious with me because I'm sure they just want to say, “Shut up, dad, Like, get lost.” But they're very gracious. Um. It's just very hard for them. It's very hard to watch what they've gone through. You know, they were 17, almost 18, and you know, 18, almost 19 when this happened. And their lives are changed forever. You know, my boys were very close. I mean, we had we had all three of them in three years and nine days, you know, And now, you know, they're brothers. They did brother things, They fought, they did all that stuff. But. But but they were very, very close. And just, yeah, but as far as others go, I mean, I don't know. Like it's interesting. I have to step back often, Dawn, because I have to step back and go, “Okay, Kyle, that is relevant to that person's life.” Like, that is the worst thing that's happening in that person's life. This is the way I'll explain it. I would say that my empathy levels, uh, have increased profoundly for other people. And yet they've decreased. Not profoundly, but they've decreased some as well. And the reason I say that is because I see I see a lot of people just differently, people that are going through different things. But, one of my best friends, his mom, has Alzheimer's and like, full blown Alzheimer's. Like, it's just so sad. And I see him differently and and and probably even more so I see his dad differently because they're grieving the loss of this amazing woman who's still alive.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it's like a death every day. Yeah.

Kyle Dube

And so I really see them differently after Luke died because of the grief part. Now, I also see some people differently whenever they're bitching and moaning and complaining about something in their lives. And I'm like, Are you just sitting there thinking sometimes? “Is that seriously what you are talking about here? Like, give me a break.”

Dawn Taylor

“Are you fucking kidding me?”

Kyle Dube

But, but, I have to step back and go, “No, that is the worst thing in their lives at this moment.”

Dawn Taylor

And at times I talk about that with clients where my clients are like, apologize for coming to me because I feel like other people have it worse. And I'm like, “No, no, no, no, no. There isn't a chart. There isn't a comparison. Your truth is your truth. What you've been through is what you've been through and how it affected you is how it affected you.”

Kyle Dube

Right, but maybe I'm just a bit of an asshole sometimes because I know.

Dawn Taylor

We all have those moments. We all have those moments.

Kyle Dube

Do that all the time. Sometimes I'm like, “No, that really isn't anything to be that upset about. Like, suck it up and, like, give me a break.”

Dawn Taylor

Okay. My one is the, the. When someone compares the death of their animal to a child or a parent or someone, and I'm like–

Kyle Dube

And I've had that a few times. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

And for the for the pet lovers out there, I'm sure you're mad that I just said that. And a lot of people fully believe that you grieve them just as strong of your family. I can't agree.

Kyle Dube

I'm here to tell you that it's actually. It's not the same. And our dog. We have our dog because of Luke. Luke was relentless in us getting a dog and running, is the most special. Um, she is everything to all of us. Yeah. And so I understand the deep, deep love of a pet. I fully understand it, but it ain't the same. Like it just so I've had a few people do that, you know, things that get said or done. It's all around the topic of what my wife taught me. She learned it somewhere around grief illiteracy, ad and being grief literate or grief illiterate. And that's what I spoke of earlier, where, prior to Luke dying, grief was an acquaintance of mine and after Luke died, it is just literally embedded into me. Like it's it's weaved all through my every fiber of my being now, and prior to Luke dying I was illiterate and truthfully am still grief illiterate. And what I mean by grief illiterate is when people say things to you, when people compare and say, “Oh no, I remember losing our dog.” It's just such an illiterate thing to say to someone grieving deeply or things like. You know, people will say, “Oh, I understand.” And it's like, “No, you don't.” But on the flip side of all of that. We don't get mad at people. Like it hurts us, to be honest with you. But they're not intentionally trying to hurt us. 

Dawn Taylor

No, they're not.

Kyle Dube

People don't know how to handle grief. Our society has no clue how to handle grief. And I know this because meither did I. And truthfully, sometimes I still don't. I've right after the two year with Luke, there's a there's a person I know, and they lost their child to suicide. And I knew this person. And this, the mom reached out to me to let me know via email. Dawn. I had no idea what to say to her. I had no idea how to respond to her. Because, so I'm grief illiterate still, right? And think the reason I didn't know what to do or say is because, maybe my grief literacy has led me to realize there's nothing people can do or say. Literally nothing. So when people are grief illiterate, you kind of can't be mad at them. You know, you can't be upset with them. I would just encourage people that if you don't know what to say or what to do, that's okay. Then just don't say anything. No, when I say that, I think it's good to show up. You know, here's something to– sorry, this is turning into the educational piece of what to say or do to me.

Dawn Taylor

That's honestly, I always ask, like for someone listening, what recommendations would you have on if someone in their life is going through this or someone you know is going through this? What would you say?

Kyle Dube

You know, this is about grief that I'm talking about, but it's really about anything when someone's going through a hardship. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Kyle Dube

And I've done this many times, is where you drop the “Let me know if you if I can do anything for you or let me know if you need anything.” Guess what? I'm not calling you to tell you what I need or what you mean because I don't even know what I need or what you can do. Now there's some different things like, you know what? Maybe you could cut the grass for me or maybe you could, but I'm probably still not going to do that. So, here's the one thing that I would suggest is that if you are supporting somebody who's grieving deeply. For whoever, whatever that loss was, whoever that loss is. Just do it. If you think they need a meal, just do it. If you think that they would love some chocolate chip cookies, just bake it and drop it off on their front door. If you think that they need some groceries, if you think that they need whatever, just do it. And because guess what? If they don't need it or they don't want it. They just won't use it or they won't eat it or they won't do it. But does that matter? I don't think it does.

Dawn Taylor

No, not at all.

Kyle Dube

Not at all. So that's something that I would say. Yeah, I would say that. And really just show up. Just show up and maybe you just show up and you don't even talk. You know, maybe you just show up. I had people that literally just showed up and just sat with me. And that was, that was needed, and they didn't have to do a lot of talking. And maybe while I'm a talker, but maybe they were listening. Maybe they, that's all you have to do, and I would also encourage people to continue to do it. Because, show up. Continue to show up because, like, we said earlier, the world keeps moving, Right? And so what happens and I think, you know, this with all the work you've done is is that support which was overwhelming how much support we go, we're very blessed.

Dawn Taylor

But it disappears really quick. 

Kyle Dube

It fades away. And then it's. It's pretty isolating. Yeah, it's pretty lonely. And I'm a very social being. Um, have a lot of incredibly, incredibly good people in my life, but kind of self-isolate a bit now because I almost feel like, well, I don't know if they, I don't know if they want to hang out. Like, just I don't know. It's just. It's all weird. Everything changes.

Dawn Taylor

Everything's just weird after,

Kyle Dube

Right? Everything changes. And, you know. So just keep showing up and don't have the expectation that that person is going to respond to you quickly or even respond at all. Just keep sending a heart emoji. Just keep sending text messages, voice messages, whatever that looks like. And, you know, we had a few things that happened. Those don't happen for a bit now. Um, and I don't know who. We have no idea who would do this, but, um, and I won't get into all the details of how we do this internally as a family, but we do five hearts. Forever five. And just randomly on our front door, like we have our front door and then like to the side, there's like a kind of a window, like, you know. And just randomly because you know how windows get dusty and stuff like on the there would be five hearts in the window. We have no we have no idea who. It happened about 4 or 5 times. No idea who did it. No idea when they did it. Yeah, but I'll tell you. It was pretty special, you know? Um, so, I just encourage others that if you're supporting people who are grieving, definitely just keep showing up, just keep showing up and and accept their moods and accept their ups and downs.

Dawn Taylor

Whatever their capacity is.

Kyle Dube

Right? Because at the end of the day, it's not about, you know, that's a big thing that I've learned. I've always kind of felt that way. But after Luke's death, I've really, you know, you can look inwardly or you can look outwardly and you can love inwardly or love outwardly. And I do my best to love outwardly as much as I can, because it ain't about me. You know it isn't. I do want others around me to feel comfortable with our situation and feel okay about our situation. So, I do my best to try to accommodate that for others. It's exhausting,

Dawn Taylor

I can see that it is.

Kyle Dube

But it's important to me and. You know, I mean, the whole idea of love. You know, we talked about my other boys earlier and what that does to relationships around love. My boys in school had a teacher in grade six and won't bring names out but as you say, I thought it was funny. I love, love, love, love. And I'm like “Yeah, whatever. That's so cheesy.” But at the end of the day, we all love love. We all love to be loved. We all love to feel love. I don't know about you. Like I love giving a gift. Probably more than receiving a gift.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, always. Yeah!

Dawn Taylor

I can see that it is.

Kyle Dube

But it's important to me and. You know, I mean, the whole idea of love. You know, we talked about my other boys earlier and what that does to relationships around love. My boys in school had a teacher in grade six and won't bring names out but as you say, I thought it was funny. I love, love, love, love. And I'm like “Yeah, whatever. That's so cheesy.” But at the end of the day, we all love love. We all love to be loved. We all love to feel love. I don't know about you. Like I love giving a gift. Probably more than receiving a gift.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, always. Yeah!

Kyle Dube

Yeah. But when you love that hard. Be prepared for the pain to be even harder when the loss happens. And that's a tough thing to wrap your brain around. 

Dawn Taylor

Don't let that be what holds you back from loving hard,

Kyle Dube

Right? Right. But. You know, you like to talk about things on here that other people don't want to talk about.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, I do.

Kyle Dube

I'm going to tell you right now that sometimes. Not all the time. I don't even know if I'm going to say it anyways. Whatever. I'll say it. There's there's times that I wish I had never met my wife. Because then we wouldn't be going through what we're going through right now. There's times that I wish I never had kids. Because then we wouldn't be going through what we're going through right now. Now, is that a selfish thing to say? Yep, it is. And some people will know that's not.

Dawn Taylor

It’s real. It's real.

Kyle Dube

But it is selfish. It is like, God, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say it, but. But I'm also okay to be selfish. Sometimes grief is selfish. I'm okay to be selfish, but there are moments. Not a lot of them. But there are moments where I'm like, “Yeah, I wish none of us wish that this was our life that we're living.” And so there are times that if I'm brutally honest about it. And I adore my wife. My wife is the greatest, and the hardest thing for me, other than losing Luke is watching my wife. It is so, indescribably painful to watch what she's going through as a mom, because I actually do think it's different, mom and dad. I really do believe that. And it's not it's not to belittle pain from a father's point of view. Or any of that. But didn't carry Luke for nine months. I didn't give birth to him. I didn't. 

Dawn Taylor

it's different. It's just. It's just different

Kyle Dube

It's just so hard. It's just so hard to explain. And, one thing I'm very and it's a maybe it's a weird way to put it, but, I'm so proud of of the four of us, because on April 6th, we all got up and we showered and got dressed and we tried. And we have literally all got up and showered, and got dressed and tried every day since

Dawn Taylor

Which is incredible.

Kyle Dube

And I don't know how. I really don't. I would love to just sleep for six months. But we can't. I guess we could. And I'm not judging for anybody who does. 

Dawn Taylor

I've tried. You can't actually sleep that long. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, that's right.  I'm not judging anybody who, you know, there's different vices that people get into.

Dawn Taylor

Everyone has their own way of dealing and healing and grieving

Kyle Dube

But somehow we've done that. But again, when you love that hard when loss happens. I actually look at it like that feeling that you get from truly being loved, right? From your partner or for me. From my kids. The pain is 100 times worse. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Kyle Dube

Well, how do you say worse? Not worse. Because love is so good. 

Dawn Taylor

It's harder to deal with a loss.

Kyle Dube

Yeah. But when you love that hard. Be prepared for the pain to be even harder when the loss happens. And that's a tough thing to wrap your brain around. 

Dawn Taylor

Don't let that be what holds you back from loving hard,

Kyle Dube

Right? Right. But. You know, you like to talk about things on here that other people don't want to talk about.

Dawn Taylor

Yes, I do.

Kyle Dube

I'm going to tell you right now that sometimes. Not all the time. I don't even know if I'm going to say it anyways. Whatever. I'll say it. There's there's times that I wish I had never met my wife. Because then we wouldn't be going through what we're going through right now. There's times that I wish I never had kids. Because then we wouldn't be going through what we're going through right now. Now, is that a selfish thing to say? Yep, it is. And some people will know that's not.

Dawn Taylor

It’s real. It's real.

Kyle Dube

But it is selfish. It is like, God, I'm not going to sugarcoat and say it, but. But I'm also okay to be selfish. Sometimes grief is selfish. I'm okay to be selfish, but there are moments. Not a lot of them. But there are moments where I'm like, “Yeah, I wish none of us wish that this was our life that we're living.” And so there are times that if I'm brutally honest about it. And I adore my wife. My wife is the greatest, and the hardest thing for me, other than losing Luke is watching my wife. It is so, indescribably painful to watch what she's going through as a mom, because I actually do think it's different, mom and dad. I really do believe that. And it's not it's not to belittle pain from a father's point of view. Or any of that. But didn't carry Luke for nine months. I didn't give birth to him. I didn't. 

Dawn Taylor

it's different. It's just. It's just different

Kyle Dube

It's just so hard. It's just so hard to explain. And, one thing I'm very and it's a maybe it's a weird way to put it, but, I'm so proud of of the four of us, because on April 6th, we all got up and we showered and got dressed and we tried. And we have literally all got up and showered, and got dressed and tried every day since

Dawn Taylor

Which is incredible.

Kyle Dube

And I don't know how. I really don't. I would love to just sleep for six months. But we can't. I guess we could. And I'm not judging for anybody who does. 

Dawn Taylor

I've tried. You can't actually sleep that long. 

Kyle Dube

Yeah, that's right.  I'm not judging anybody who, you know, there's different vices that people get into.

Dawn Taylor

Everyone has their own way of dealing and healing and grieving

Kyle Dube

But somehow we've done that. But again, when you love that hard when loss happens. I actually look at it like that feeling that you get from truly being loved, right? From your partner or for me. From my kids. The pain is 100 times worse. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. 

Kyle Dube

Well, how do you say worse? Not worse. Because love is so good. 

Dawn Taylor

It's harder to deal with a loss.

Kyle Dube

How about this? I feel that love, but I actually think that I feel that pain a million times more than I felt the love. And I think that that's what, and I've said it before in a couple other things. What I missed the most is the love and the exchanges of love. That's what I miss the most. And it's all those exchanges of love that you have with loved ones that nobody even knows about. You know, the little looks, the inside jokes, you know, just all the little tiny things. And I could list you a thousand things that I miss. And it's hard. And there's certain things that I, you know, that I have a hard time with. Luke and I used to watch Jeopardy. I know. So nerdy. We'd watch Jeopardy when he was a little boy. We'd watch it. I mean, I always thought I was pretty good at Jeopardy, and he would try really hard, and we just beacon one another and tease one another. And If I'm flipping the TV and Jeopardy's on, I cannot watch Jeopardy anymore. You know, with little things like that, you know? 

Dawn Taylor

You know, so having not I've never lost a child. I'm just putting that out there. This is not a comparison. But it's interesting, having lost my mom in 2008. And I actually talked in your podcast about that as well. But a few of the things that were cool was when the shift happened, you know, we talked about like 2029, if the magic could happen that you've all of a sudden would feel amazing. I have often said to people that the grief, the loss doesn't go away because they're still lost. They're still gone. Right. But, there was a shift that happened where I could shift it from “She's gone and I'm grieving that and it hurts so bad.” to “How do I honor that different? And can I have a little piece of her back by doing those actions and activities?” So, by going to do our favorite things, right, by going to the greenhouse or planting the garden or, you know, watching the Jeopardy show or, you know, my mom and I bought each other Christmas City every year. It was this dorky thing. We'd both find a CD and then we'd buy each other a copy and we'd send it to them and mail it to them or give it to them. And the amount of years that went without buying a Christmas CD or refusing to listen to Christmas music and it took a really long time, I'll be honest. And I had hurt with my mom, right. But the year that I was like, I'm going to buy a Christmas CD and I'm going to do this and it's going to hurt like, fuck. I'll be honest, it was a very big moment for me. But I did it and I could find a little piece of her in it and laugh about it and think how funny it was. And one year I bought her, like, the Christmas CD, and she was like, “What did you buy me?” Like, she was so mortified at how bad it was. Sorry, Bonnie. And, you know, I got an opportunity last year to actually go see them in concert. And is it because I love Bonnie? No, but I went and I sat there and at times just cried, thinking of, like, this is the kind of thing I would have done is bring my mom to a Bonnie in concert to trick her, knowing that she would have just been, like, really done. Like, “Why didn't you do this?”

Kyle Dube

That's the thing, is you were able to cry but laugh and have those. 

Dawn Taylor

But there's been an interesting shift, right? And I'm excited for the day that some of that shifts for you. And it might not be for a long time, but where you can do those things again, where you could sit and watch the show and have the cry and laugh about it, and then guess at what he would have guessed or what he would have said and and still feel like you're living with his legacy and a piece of him in those moments and also finding someone and this would be my one recommendation for people listening is, as much as it might be hard if they want to talk about the person, talk about them. That is probably one of the hardest things I dealt with was even in my grieving and in my healing of our relationship and my healing of stuff, I still needed to talk about my mom. And it felt like nobody wanted to talk about her and it felt like she was forgotten about and no one would discuss her. And I finally found a couple people that engaged me in that, and even if it was so hard for them and they'd comment on that sometimes and I'd be like, “Thank you. I know how much this means to have this conversation.” and we would just just laugh about or talk about or compare stories and, and just like invite her into current life.

Kyle Dube 

Yes. Yes. So it's interesting that you bring this up because I'm really struggling with that still. I shouldn't say. Still, I've been struggling with it the whole time and I think I'll continue to. And so when we talk about stigma around suicide, um, a big fear that we have is people are going to forget Luke. Because, if someone dies with natural causes or someone maybe dies unnaturally with, you know, a car crash or an accident or whatever. Quite often their lives are celebrated right there. What we've realized is that, this is my perception anyways, and you need to know this is my perception that I think people, some people look at Luke this way because this is a way that I'm still struggling to not look at Luke this way is that he was a sad 16.5 year old boy who died by suicide. And that's not who Luke was. Like, If you would have known Luke. I've already talked a bit about him, right? Like, that's.not who he was, and we didn't have a service for Luke because it was during COVID and we could literally have ten people there. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh. Which made it even harder because you couldn't have a celebration. 

Kyle Dube

We couldn't. And it's not even the celebration. It would have been no celebration for us. Like that's that's maybe it's not even a stigma when someone dies by suicide. How do you celebrate them? Like that's, I'm and I believe that you can like, don't get me wrong, I'm actually going to start, I'm doing some work on myself. I'm going into a, uh, therapeutic type thing that I'm going to start here in the fall where it's about reintroducing yourself. It's all based on suicide, but reintroducing yourself to your loved one. Because I need to celebrate Luke. I need to do those things that you just talked about. Eventually, I really believe that I do. And but, you know, you hear of, whatever, celebration of life services or whatever. If people that take their lives like, quite often, even at the service, that's all talked about and it's just so somber and so sad. And again, we didn't even have a service. So truthfully, we don't talk about Luke very much. And I don't want to say that because we do, but not in the way I want us to get to a point where we're going all “Luke would have laughed his head off at that.” All “Luke, remember when Luke did this?” And we do a little bit of that. That's where a bit of a shift is. That's happening a bit. But I want it to become embedded into our daily life. 

Dawn Taylor

So, can I challenge you on that?

Kyle Dube

One thing I was going to, was we love when people send us a message or when we're talking to people when they say Luke's name. Because then we're going, “Okay. They haven't forgotten Luke.” You know, we've got a family friend. I'll say your first name, Gina. And she's just the best. She's our friend's daughter. She's 20 years old. And on the fifth of every month, the fifth of every month since Luke died, she sends my wife and I a message saying, “I'm thinking about you. I love Luke so much.” And I'm telling you, Dawn, it means so much to us that she does that. And I think mostly because she says Luke's name. Because a lot of people in our lives, we just don't talk about Luke Now, let's be honest. We also don't talk about our other kids constantly.

Dawn Taylor

Yeah.

Kyle Dube

Right? But the sad part for us is when we get together and we actually don't even do it that much anymore. And this is a reason why, because when you get together and we hope that we'll be able to do it more in the future, but when you get together with people that you've kind of raised your kids with. While you give updates on all the kids, you know? We have no updates to give Luke. Luke is 16.5 years old forever now. And that's hard. That's hard. What's your challenge? What's your challenge?

Dawn Taylor

My challenge would be start with one tiny thing and whether it's always, you know, a favorite food that he loved at Christmas when you guys are together or something like that. I started it because my mom passed away when her grandkids were quite young. And so I started in a way of my mom loved doing puzzles. So, I always have a puzzle going on the table and everyone used to laugh at me for it, and now it's become a regular thing at Christmas. And I just make, like, funny comments about it now. The kids are doing it and it's really funny because it's like they act like they know Grandma because they've heard me talk about grandma so much that I'd be like, “Oh, you can't start in the middle. You have to sort the edges first. Grandma would not be impressed.” Right? Or laughing about silly things like, “Do you remember when Mom got mad because we did this at the table and she put literally dish soap down our mouths because that was what she like?” She was just so angry and held us down and did that.

Kyle Dube

I grew up with soap in my mouth a lot too.

Dawn Taylor

Right? But, like, it's just little things, and it started for me, of every single time I'm with my siblings or my nieces and nephews that I would try like one time a day, just one time of day to somehow incorporate a mom's story.

Kyle Dube

Yeah, no, I like that. And, like I said, it's something that even subconsciously, obviously, it's come around a little bit more. Um, truthfully, my wife's better at it than I am. I'm hopeful that what I'm going to do here in the fall will bring me to a better space that way. But again, Luke's identity needs, it needs to shift for me. And because it's because I know that that's not who Luke was. So that's tough, you know? And again, it's the stigma around suicide. You know, there's terms that we don't like,  I really appreciate how you the language you use when you talk about suicide because neither of us have said the C-word yet. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. 

Kyle Dube

And I'll say, in case people think that, I'm talking about another word. The term committed suicide. It's a horrible term because it's actually a criminal term and we struggle with the term suicide prevention. Because it's like, for us now as a mom and dad or brothers or grandparents and whatever. It's, oh, suicide prevention. I guess we should have worked harder at preventing this. 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say, there's such a shame attached to it and it makes it seem like it's always preventable.

Kyle Dube

Right? And at the end of the day, we are a great example of how it isn't always preventable. Because obviously if it was, we would have. And I think it's Australia that have really worked hard to change their language of even like national campaigns and all that type of stuff where suicide is complicated. 

Dawn Taylor

So that's a good way to word that.

Kyle Dube

And it is it's it's. Incredibly complicated. So Luke's birthday, the two hardest days of the year for us, or April 5th, the day that he died, and September 30th, which is Luke's birthday. And, well, what's September is Suicide Prevention Month. So, all September on all the social media is like, it's just constant suicide prevention. Listen, I'm a believer in the cause obviously. I just wish that the language was a little bit different, you know? I do.  If it can happen to our family. Not that we were perfect. Not that we are. We're not a perfect family. But, I do believe we're a good family. And we're a family where again, it's that saying of like, it takes a village and we have this incredible village. But if it can happen to us with the village that we're involved in, it can literally happen to anybody. And my hope is that anyone listening will really sit back and reflect on that and and try to do everything they can to be relentless. And again, I use the word relentless. I mean, we met because I have a podcast, the relentless podcast 

Dawn Taylor

You do, and I was on it. 

Kyle Dube

You were. And people should go listen because your story is as the way I describe it. Unbelievable. Because it's almost unbelievable, and the podcast is not about Luke, and so it's based around because we use this word at my work all the time. All my youth workers are relentless youth workers. We are relentless with these at risk, vulnerable young people that we work with. And again, it's what that description of relentless is, we show up for them all the time. We're we are literally banging on doors when they're not showing up to jobs or appointments. And like we are, that's what we do as parents, Jeanette and I. And that's what these young people need. So, that's a plug for you can use services, you know, please do check us out.

Dawn Taylor

We will put all the links in our show notes for anyone who needs to find Kyle, you can find them. 

Kyle Dube 

And that Relentless Podcast is just bringing people like you want and so many others to talk about how they've had to be relentless in their lives to get to where they are today. And there is a two part episode on there with me and Chris Joseph, very good friend of mine who lost his son in the Humboldt crash. And because of the most relentless pressure in our lives is grief. But, I can't, I heard it said this way and I say it this way. I don't believe I'm ever going to be proof. But I can't, I've got to do my best to make sure grief isn't beating me. How about this? At least all the time. It can't be beating. And because it is relentless. So, I need to be relentless in my life. I need to live. And I need to love. Some days it's not easy. Some days it's easier. But that's what I have to tell myself all the time. In order to get through this, I have to live and I have to love. Um. But please, listeners, this, I don't know. I think it's a common thing to say about many things. Suicide does not discriminate. It doesn't. Mental health. Mental health does not. Mental illness does not discriminate. And I'm just begging you to be relentless in your own life. Be relentless in the lives of others. That's it. 

Dawn Taylor

Thank you, Kyle. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being so vulnerable. Thank you for sharing Luke with us. Your precious, amazing son. I am so honored that you hung out with us today and that you shared this with us and for the listeners. I hope you got a kick in the gut on this one. I really hope you did. Not that it just hit home. We've all been raised with these stigmas. We hear these stigmas around us, we hear them in the news, we hear them in the media, we hear our friends talk about them. And I hope that this episode will challenge you to step up, stand up and change your language on things, change your stigmas and ideas on things, but also don't be afraid to speak up to those around you. 

If you want to find Kyle, he's the executive director over there and doing amazing work in this city. Please check out our show notes located at TheTaylorWay.ca for all the contact information for Kyle, his podcast. We'll post the episode I did there so you can go listen to that. It's a very cool episode. We dug really deep on some stuff in my world and it was really powerful. Join us again in two weeks for another topic. And please, please share this with people in your life that need to hear this. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts and if you love the show, leave a rating and a review.