Dawn Taylor| 04/12/2023

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And today we are talking to the infamous Ben. Okay, I don't know what makes him infamous, but that's just what we're going to call him today. Today's topic is from burnout to content. And I have to say, I'm so excited that I'm talking to a man about this today. Because women, this is a big topic these days, is talking about burnout and talking about trying to find this infamous balance that I think is garbage, but the infamous balance and trying to get to all those places. But today we're going to be talking to Ben about it. Before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about your guests, our guest, so you can be as excited as I am. Ben, who are you? He is a leader of, well, he's on a leadership team of a diverse urban church. The place is a very strong emphasis on mental health, addiction recovery and the cultivation of robust community relationship. During the work week. He is the customer service manager of a locally owned company, where he applies his professional expertise to support several prominent nonprofit accounts in the region. For the past decade, him and his wife have proudly lived in Grand Rapids, where their home is, embodying the city's spirit of growth and rejuvenation. Ben's personal journey revolves around self-discovery overcoming his past. He is an advocate for mental health and self-worth, and with 17 years of marriage to Andy, the epitomize enduring love and commitment while raising two teenagers they adopted from the foster system. This could be part of maybe why he is so legendary and amazing and has such an incredible heart. Welcome to the show, Ben.

Ben Kraker

Thank you. Dawn. It is great to be here.

Dawn Taylor

I am so excited you are here. So just a little bit of backstory. I was on one of Ben's podcasts quite a few years ago already, three years now. Yeah, it's been a while and I had such a great time with him and Mike and their podcast that they were doing -  High Tech Ease. Right?

Ben Kraker

It was Threads.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, sorry. Threads. Wrong one. Whoops. Okay, I should know better. And we had such an amazing conversation. And so when I saw your application come through to talk today I was very excited about this. So tell us a little bit about what you wish people were talking about.

Ben Kraker

I wish that people, and more specifically men, we're willing to have the conversations about why they feel so pressured to do the things that they're doing, and to throw themselves in with such a huge level of involvement as if they have something to prove. I just see, you know, especially with men, it's the career that's usually the focus. And everything else takes a backseat to their career. You know, maybe for some, it's sports or it could be any different thing. But, people and men more specifically typically have something that they give all of themselves to. And I just look at that and I wonder, is that really healthy? Is that necessary? Do we need to be giving 110% of us all the time to all these things, and especially in the church context? One of the primary messages that I hear from the Holy Spirit as I read the Bible is "Come to me, and I will give you rest. Be still and know that I am God." And we read in Exodus, "You only need to be still because the Lord will fight for you." So, where do we come up with this crazy idea that we have to do all the things and be all the things to all the people? It's just, it's crazy and it's not worth losing your life to.

Dawn Taylor

Wow. So multiple thoughts on this. Number one is, having grown up in the church and being a churchgoer myself, right? They always say and being active in nonprofits and charitable organizations and stuff, they always say that the 20 carry the 80 right. 20% of people will always do the work for the other 80%. And I often have looked back at that and thought, to put it really bluntly, like, this is bullshit. Like, what is going on? Why is this the way it is? And and I see it in that way too. So can you give us some examples of. Of what you're talking about. Like when it comes to like sports, when you're talking about all these things, it is definitely a thing. It is definitely a thing when you say that, right? That people will become obsessed. It's an obsession with something. Give me some examples of this, even from your own life, if you don't mind.

Ben Kraker

Yeah, well, I'm not much of a sports fan. However, I get into things like cycling or kayaking and there was a summer where I don't even know why, but I made a goal that I was going to bike 800 miles that summer, and I would not allow myself to fail like, hell or high water. I was going to get 800 miles in and to this day, I'm not entirely sure why. Ihink maybe I was after a little bit of, if I'm honest, attention and like, kudos from people for doing a really hard thing. But what I've learned is that instead of doing these crazy things, I can just ask for what I need. And that's been a life changer. So that comes to mind. And then I also mentioned work. This was more applicable when I was in full time ministry. I just felt like 40 hours wasn't a thing. Like I felt like my role in life was to do ministry. 24, seven and maybe 40 of those hours happened in the church context, but it felt like ministry was my job and like my calling. So, I need to be doing that all the time. Like there's no room for me to get what I need or to rest or to slow down. Um, just this mentality of like, that's what being on fire for the Lord is, is constantly doing all the things and and yet missing out on those very foundational invitations from God that I mentioned that are throughout the entire scripture.

Dawn Taylor

So, secular or non secular, right. So, the audience but the audience that's not that aren't faith-based. Don't you stuff. You're no different. You're no different whether you're in the church or not.

Ben Kraker

I Left the full time ministry and work in the corporate world now. So there's definitely a lot of tie-ins. It's not an either or here. I think in the church context it's just a little bit more nuanced.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, but is it? I think like the minute you said the word calling. Just like, how much is that? Like, I have a mission. I have a calling, I have, I was just gone for a few days. I take off every quarter for a few days and just kind of run away and breathe.

Ben Kraker

It's awesome.

Dawn Taylor

And one of the things that really hit me on this last one was this urgency to be busy, right. And everyone's talking about is this whole balancing in the burnout and everything else. And one thing that's come to me lately is like, I love working. I love it. Do I feel called to be doing what I'm doing as a trauma specialist? 100%. Do I think that it is a gift I've been given? 100%. Do I think that I am making a difference in this world? Absolutely, right? Like, I love what I do, but I also have no issues with taking time off. I struggle to stop working because I actually genuinely like working. But I also know, like when I have to stop client working or to have a break. And there is a difference and. I was scrolling social media one day, and I'm literally sitting in a garden shed in Portland. Another story living in someone's mini house.

Ben Kraker

Pardon?

Dawn Taylor

Portland, Oregon.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. Oh, fantastic. I used to live there.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, crazy. Yeah. So I was sitting there and I was scrolling social media and I saw these posts. I'm like, if you really want to get ahead and you really want to reach your calling, and you really wanted this and you really wanted that, and not faith-based people, just very secular, popular people of the world. Right? Because this wording spreads everywhere, you know, turn off Netflix and turn on a podcast, stop reading garbage and read a business book like you should always be in grow mode. And. I don't know if it's because I'm kind of a defiant toddler at heart. Anyone who knows me in my inner circle knows that about me. I am very much a defiant toddler at heart still. There was a piece of me that sat there and immediately felt shame for the fact that I had just binged too much Netflix that day. And I had to really stop myself and be like, "Where did that shame just come from?"

Ben Kraker

Right.

Dawn Taylor

And it wasn't guilt. It wasn't guilt that I had, like, done something wrong or I had wasted time or any of that. It was shame. It was full on. I am a bad person and I made a bad choice. And it was. I sat there and I was like, whew, there's some big feels coming up right now around this. And I love when those feels happen. I know most people hide from them and try to mask them. I always look at them to think like, "Wow, what is this? Where is this coming from?" And if anyone's listening to this podcast for a while, you know my line that I use all the time, it's like no judgment, just curiosity. And I realized that it was so many of these people that I was following because yes, they're motivational and yes, they're successful and yes, they're super wealthy and yes, they're all of these things and they're doing amazing work. But there was a shame attached to me not doing the same. And I was talking to my husband about it and he's like, "We need rest." Like mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. He's like, "We need rest." And he's like, "Rest is having a nap. Rest is watching too much Netflix. Rest is drawing a map of the top ten waterfalls in the Oregon area, and going on a road trip for a day, right, which I did."

Ben Kraker

You get to the coast? The  ocean?

Dawn Taylor

I did. I went to Canon Beach like I did. I went to Tillamook. Just eat cheese samples. Right. Like I did those things. But it was interesting, this weird feeling of shame attached to it. Yet when I look around right now, the conversations I've had even in the last few days with people, so many people are burnt out right now. So many people are burning out right now. So many people have a ridiculous level of fatigue in their world. And whether it's collective trauma at everything that's going on in the world, or it's the fact that we're just all so freaking burnt out because we're working too hard and giving too much. I do think that that's something that we need to look at as a society is - Can I? Can I go at 75% and still thrive?

Ben Kraker

Absolutely. I think that's very possible. But if you were to ask Ben ten years ago, I would have laughed at that and said, "No, you need to give not only 100%, but you need to find some extra in your reserves and give 110%, because that's what you do if you're passionate about something." So, I think somehow we've twisted passion to involve like a certain quantity of something where passion should really be about the quality, not the quantity. Like we're, so we measure everything it feels like. And I think that just adds to the stress and burnout. We can't just be passionate about something. We have to, for me, the pressure to measure and log 800 miles, like, why couldn't I have just said I'm going to ride my bike this summer and I'm going to love it? I think we experienced the same thing in a career setting, and just in general, it just feels like we have to have a reason or a number that we're working towards or like, it doesn't count unless you achieve something with it. And so, yeah, I think the collective trauma and the burnout is a direct result of feeling like we have to live up to some. Expectation that we don't even know who said it, but we feel the pressure to meet it.

Dawn Taylor

Where do you think that started? Like I know where a lot of ours would have started. Right? And that was started with how we were raised. Started with, you know, I come from an Eastern European, like a German background, and it's like you help your neighbors and you help everybody, and you give, give, give, give, give. And boundaries aren't a thing. Boundaries. Why would you have boundaries? You know boundaries. Boundaries are walls. Boundaries are evil. You're blocking. No, no, no. Boundaries are the most beautiful thing ever. And, like, so I know where that comes from in my world. Right? The constant need to give above and beyond. And I think it's the above and beyond that's the problem is it's not just about giving because I, I still fully believe that we do need to serve. We do need to give. We do need to, you know, volunteer for things like 100% like I have six massive cases of printer paper sitting in my entrance right now because there's a charity in need. And I had paper delivered today. Right? But it's the difference between buying six massive cases and buying 50 masses of cases, and then posting everywhere about it, and then having to figure out how to get it to them, and then doing a photo shoot and then making it a big ordeal and then stressing out because financially I couldn't afford to buy 50 cases of paper. And but if I don't buy the 50 cases and now they run out of paper in the next five years, I'm at fault because I said like, do you know what I mean? It feels like that's like, maybe that's a silly example, but it feels like that's what we do.

Ben Kraker

It does. Yeah. For me, I think of two examples or two possibilities come to mind of the origin story. Um, in my life, I grew up in a family setting where I was very different from my two brothers. They were into the hunting and the fishing and the. They were both pretty sporty. Um, and then my dad shared a lot of those similar interests, and I would say my dad and both of my brothers, um, certainly don't have the same personality makeup as I do. Like, I realized that I am a rare breed. I'm a sensitive man. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. Frankly, I don't think my brothers and even my dad were comfortable with that growing up. So, what that does for me, and I'm sure for others who may be listening, is it creates this sense of obligation to meet somebody else's desires for you. It's like somebody else has, like, these conditions that you need to meet in order to have a relationship with them. And whether that's true or not, it's the feeling. And the feeling eventually motivates the behavior. And I very much saw that in my life. So that's something that comes to mind as an origin point, just not feeling at home in my family of origin, and then feeling like I had to set some arbitrary things to accomplish in order to be what my dad or brothers are and things like that. So, that's certainly one of the origins. And the second I would say is social media. Like, I think a lot of this is a recent phenomenon. I look back to the days before social media where if you're like, you wouldn't know what your friends were up to every single day. Every single minute of the day. Because they're not, I mean, there's nowhere to look. And so when social media hits the the scene, all of a sudden there's like this pressure to one up each other like, oh, so-and-so just went to the Bahamas. Well, now I need to go to Turks and Caicos or whatever it is, like there's this pressure to, to do better, to one up them. And it takes away from that sense of contentment, of just enjoying it. Um, and then like you were saying, like whenever a good deed is done, there's like this massive pressure to, like, record it and make a big deal out of it and put it on social media. And so much energy these days get spent on like hustling and making a name for yourself. And my question to that is, why do you need to make a name for yourself with people who will watch a video and then scroll on to the next video and not even think about you again? Like, why do we give so much time and attention and value to these fly by night people that will never really have a certain level of engagement with, because it's just something on our phone screen that we're seeing as we scroll.

Dawn Taylor

I love that you said that. It's. I have been. So if you've listened to my podcast episodes, there's one about why is it so hard to make friends as adults?

Ben Kraker

Yes, and that was a good one.

Dawn Taylor

You're part of that one. The broken relationship right between you and a friend. Yeah, and he was the one who was on the podcast with me talking about it. So it was amazing today to hear that you guys have prepared a lot of that relationship. And you have healthy boundaries now, and you've figured out what works for you. And it's working really, really well. But I have lost friends over this last year over the over many years, and I'm sure for a lot of reasons, I know I'm not a super easy person to be friends with and that's who I am. But I have had so many people in my life and I've noticed that, especially over this last year, get mad because I can't come to their event. I can't come to their party. I don't want to host a party for them. I can't show up at things that they're doing or whatever it is, whatever it is, because of my lack of capacity and the amount of pain that has come with that would blow people's minds, of when I say no, I'm sorry, I can't. And they're like, what? Like, what's wrong with you?

Ben Kraker

And we were friends, right?

Dawn Taylor

And I said, this is some of the day. I said, you know what? It's by me. Choosing me doesn't mean I'm rejecting you.

Ben Kraker

That's a very good point.

Dawn Taylor

I'm not. I'm not rejecting you. I'm not rejecting you by me choosing my health, by me choosing my my family, my husband, my, whatever it is. It does not mean I'm rejecting you. And people don't like that.

Ben Kraker

I don't know, I think I might push back a bit on that idea of rejection, like. I don't know. I would say it is rejection. And rejection is just part of life. Like you're not always going to get the dream job that you wanted. You're not going to, if you're in sales, you're not going to close the big deal all the time, like you're going to be rejected. You're not going to be able to marry the person of your dreams necessarily right away. So, I think when we say no to people, we are rejecting them. And it's okay.

Dawn Taylor

But is it the rejecting them? Or there is emotions being attached to a decision that shouldn't be based on the intention behind it? Yeah. I mean, like, if I'm being invited to, like, a KKK event. Yes, I am full on rejecting you by. Hell no. I'm not attending your event. That is a flat-out rejection because my intention behind it is. No. I need you to know that I am not okay with this. And I don't want to do this. Right. But by me saying no. "You know what? I know that we had dinner tonight scheduled, but my husband has asked if there's any way I can be home and spend the evening with him, because he's really needing to connect to me right now." I don't think I'm rejecting. And maybe that's something I need to really look at for myself, but for me, I would never take that as a rejection from somebody. I'd be like, oh, they're just not available.

Ben Kraker

Sure. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And they didn't reject. So have we become too sensitive? Right. We're maybe meaning right. Or we've attached a personal meaning to everything.

Ben Kraker

Yes, well, way to turn the table back on me, because that just reveals one of my tendencies, like I do take things like probably more personally than I should a lot of the time. And, you know, it can be to my benefit if I take things personally. Like I had a customer this week who had an issue with their phones, and I just listened and I empathized and was like, "Oh, that is rough. Oh, somebody left you a negative review because of their poor experience with your phones when they called. That sucks. That's not okay." So I so in some sense is taking things personally earns credibility. But I also see where you're coming from. Maybe it's not a rejection. Maybe it's just as you're saying, I just can't do, it doesn't have to be an emotion tied behind it. Not everything in life has a emotion anchoring it, and that's a really hard concept for me to grasp.

Dawn Taylor

I can see that. But it's, for me personally, I think that that is what, like I've had to put some of those boundaries in place to keep me from burning out.

Ben Kraker

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

Right?

Ben Kraker

Definitely.

Dawn Taylor

you know, it's no different than, like, no, I can't come to your event. I can't come to this networking event. And it's not because I don't love you. It's not because I don't support you. It's not because I don't want to be there, I actually can't.

Ben Kraker

Right. And sometimes that's okay. And you don't even need to explain if you can't.

Dawn Taylor

Right. And I think that that's where we actually need to just give ourselves more grace. But also look at that burnout piece to be like, "What is it that I am putting on my plate? What is it that I am doing to earn favor with someone?"

Ben Kraker

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

Versus this is something I love and I'm passionate about. Yeah. Think that's the other piece of the burnout is yes, we become obsessed right where it's like, but I have to go to every hockey game, and I have to go to every sporting event, and I have to play every single round of golf, and I have to write 800 miles on my bike, and I have to travel nonstop, and I have to do all those things. And the burnout 100% hits. The burnout hits because we actually just don't have the capacity to do everything that we're trying to do, right? And that obsession. But often like, and I talked to clients about this all the time is anytime we have like a big emotion to something or a big reaction or like a big action to something. What is it we're trying to. What is the need we're trying to meet?

Ben Kraker

Yes.

Dawn Taylor

Right. So are we needing someone to be like you did? Good, kid. Way to go ride your bike. Are we needing to feel loved or are we needing to feel accepted? Or are we needing to feel like we're part of something? Or are we needing to feel like we're part of a community? Are we like there's always a deeper emotion there that is attached to it. But I think because we attach those emotions to things, because needing that need met, then when someone else can't meet that expectation for of us or that we've put on them, we immediately go to hurt because we're not upset that they didn't show up at our event. We're not upset that they didn't, you know, come out to something. We're not upset that they didn't travel one more time to see us that month. We're actually like, "You don't love me. I'm not enough."

Ben Kraker

Mm. Yeah. You internalize it when it doesn't need to be internalized.

Dawn Taylor

No, it was all external. It was all just this big external thing. And I think that that's I don't know I think that's a lot of the burnout. Right. Definitely. But there's always somebody else that needs more or whatever it is.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. So taking what you said about unmet needs, do you think? Well, I guess what do you think? How do those unmet needs, what's the connection to social media? I think for me, I see a lot of connection there. Curious if if you see anything like you were talking about, if you got the 50 cases of paper, um, do you think there's an unmet need that motivates people to put it all out there on social media?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, absolutely. I think that people are I think a lot of us don't feel significant in our lives anymore, where we don't have, we were raised in a culture where you get a star, you get a star on the top of a paper for doing good. You get graded. You get graded every single day of your entire childhood until you're about 18, where it's like you literally get a mark. Where it's like, how good did you do? You get a gold sticker, you get a gold star, you get an attaboy, you win a trophy, right? You are. There is a tangible. There's a tangible checklist. There is a tangible way to acknowledge that you are important or not, or if you've done right or wrong or good or bad. And because we're raising that, I don't I'm not saying we need to get rid of grades. I'm not saying we need to get rid of all of those things. I do think, though, that there isn't any room in that for like, "Hey, what about like, who you are as a person? What about your heart? What about did you serve?" What about like, there's so many other things in that. The problem is we then become adults. And now the only significance we often get is from a significant other. Right, "I love you. You're amazing. You're great. Thank you, thank you, thank you." Whatever. If you're lucky enough to have someone that has the words of affirmation going on, sure, there's a vulnerability piece there. So now the minute they insult you, the minute they're mad at you, whatever. It hurts. So now you're not getting it there. And we don't have like, there's so many broken parent-child relationships. Like I remember someone asking me the thing I miss most about my dad. And I was like, "You know, I have done some really freaking cool stuff over the last 12 years, and I would love to just hear, like 'You did good, kid. Look, I'm proud of you.'" and we don't get that anymore, right? Like so many of us don't get any of those affirmations of like, "Hey, you matter. You're important. I'm really glad you're here on this earth." And so when we can put that out there on social media. And other people feed that to you, whether it's authentic or not. It still meets that need. So I think that's a piece of it. I think the other piece of it is there was a contentedness to life. When we only saw what we were doing and what our neighbors were doing, and what our friends or the people at church were doing in the small way, we saw it right when we only saw their houses, and we only saw their clothes, and we only saw how they ate, and we only saw their decor, and we only knew that they went camping every other weekend during the summer, because that was what they did in their tents, like, and that was it. That was that was their life. There was this beautiful content that, I feel like, yeah, we all kind of live this similar life. And, I mean, there was always like a wee hierarchy of like, oh, those people have a motorhome. We only have tents like, but the gaps were so much smaller because we didn't see what people were actually doing. And now with social media, right. You might see somebody. I mean, I know someone might get mad at me for saying this, but you have the people like the Rachel Hollis of the world who built this entire, like, cult following community of people around her, and being this marriage guru and everything is perfect. And then suddenly they're getting divorced.

Ben Kraker

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

And you end up with situations like that. So now you're watching somebody on social media and you're like, "Oh my gosh, they constantly travel and look at how amazing their life is." and look at how and we become discontent with our own life. "Oh, they're spouse's fitter than mine. Oh, they're eating better food than me. Oh, look at their brand new wardrobe. Oh, look at how they've renovated their house. I want to hang really, really fancy, expensive, crazy wallpaper in my house, too." Right? Because this is what we're seeing. We're seeing this everywhere. And because it's like we're constantly given proof, every scroll, we're given proof that we are not as good as someone else. Yeah, we're not enough.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt you. Interesting to me is The concept of Reddit, like there is a subreddit for absolutely everything on planet Earth, it feels like like are you into AI image generation? Oh, there's a subreddit for you. Cycling, health, different medicines, psychology, counseling, cities. Like, there's such a need for people to, like, have significance. And they, it's like they can't find that significance on their own. They have to have somebody else validate them for caring about the things they care about. And before social media, like if you were into rock collecting, you could just be into rock collecting. And it didn't have to become this huge thing that you join online communities about or, or post pictures of your rocks for all the world to see, and trying to convince them that you matter because you're a rock collector. You could just collect the damn rocks and look at them and find satisfaction and be okay with that. But, with the advent of social media and Reddit and everything else, it's like we have to. There's this weird pressure to find validation from other people, as if our own satisfaction from doing those things isn't enough. And that's just batshit crazy

Dawn Taylor

Isn't it? Yeah, when it is. I had a comment from some of the day and she's like, I love how she's like, "You're so just like, open and honest about what's going on in your life." Like, I'm the first person to be like, I think it was like my birthday post to my husband. This last year was like, "You're a pain in the ass. And at times I've hated your guts. Yeah, I love you more than anything. And I'm glad we fought for us." Right? But also I'm like, oh, there I go, off to IVs again. And this sucks really bad. And I cried the whole time. But you know what? It's keeping me alive. And it's keeping me healthy to, you know, someone laughed and they're like, "I love that you travel as much as you do, and you go to all these cool places, but you're so willing to show that, like, you're literally living in a garden shed instead of showing that you're like, at the Ritz-Carlton, right?" And I'm like, "Well, no, because I have a budget this big, like this little tiny budget for travel my husband and I have agreed on, and I try to get as much out of it as I can." But that also means like, I was gone for ten days and I think I ate one meal out.

Ben Kraker

Wow. That's impressive.

Dawn Taylor

I cooked, I was in Portland and I didn't even go to a single food truck.

Ben Kraker

I feel like you missed out on so much of the Portland culture?

Dawn Taylor

Oh, 100% I did, but it also was if I wanted to go for that long and I wanted to do what I wanted to do, it was like, what are my priorities and where does it matter? Because I don't need a photo of my food to know that I had a good time. I don't need a photo of those things, right? Like I was in New York for three weeks and didn't need a single slice of pizza.

Ben Kraker

Wow. Impressive.

Dawn Taylor

Again, I hardly ate out. I cooked all my food. I walked the 15 minutes every two days in about groceries and put them in my little backpack and walked back like, that's what I did. But, I also did so many cool, amazing things while I was there and did multiple Broadway shows and did all these cool things, but it was never about I'm doing this for a like. I'm doing this to brag about it. I'm doing this to make myself significant. I'm doing this so I can tell someone I did it. I'm doing this for... Right? And I think that's where, I don't know. I think as a society if we actually sat back. And we're like, "What do I want? What do I actually want? What do I actually desire? What are my actual priorities?" You know, I get asked to donate for charities constantly, constantly. I at times in my life have gotten 3 to 5 emails a day asking for money, time, resources, whatever. And I used to I had a very, very strict list of who I would donate to, what the like, the metrics that they had to hit for me to ever do a donation. And there's a pretty big list of metrics that I'd share with people if they ever were interested. But I really, really put time and energy and effort into that. And I remember one charity getting really mad at me for it. And I said, you know what's really interesting? And they were like, what? And I said, I could give, I could give to you all day, 100%, I could. I said, but if I give to every single person, I'm going to be on the other side needing charity because I will bankrupt myself, and I will end up on the street. And I will end up with nothing because I gave everything away.

Ben Kraker

Yeah.

Dawn Taylor

People don't get that. People don't get that. So what was your breaking point? Let's go back to your breaking point of what made you hit. So you left the church, the leadership portion of the church, right?

Ben Kraker

Well, I'm still involved in leadership.

Dawn Taylor

Just not full time.

Ben Kraker

I'm not getting a paycheck for it. It's really the biggest distinguisher. And for some reason, like, that's what kind of flipped the switch in my head. I realized while I was still employed in the church that I was doing it because that's what I got paid to do, and I had to do it a certain way in order to get that paycheck. And so, though it may not have been in line with my passions, the way I was doing my ministry was. The expectation of the church because they're the ones writing the paycheck. So I better fall in line with what they want. And so what I found myself doing is like basically borrowing other people's stuff. That wasn't my own idea and finding what was going to fit for that context, and then doing it and striving so hard to lead a ministry based on somebody else's ideas. Side note, if you ever want a side hustle to get into, get into writing curriculum for youth group, because my goodness, there are just thousands of them out there. And churches pay so much money for VBS curriculum, youth group curriculum. It's just again, an indicator of how off base. This is so that was a breaking point there, realizing that I was essentially doing things to get the paycheck and not doing things that I really wanted to do because I was afraid it wouldn't be in line with the church or the organization that I was working for at the time. So I made the decision I will no longer accept the paycheck from a church, and that boundary has just created so many amazing opportunities in my life. I have one mentor in particular who is a bit old school in his thinking, and he'll kind of prod me. You know, you just are so gifted, like you would be an amazing pastor or an amazing fill in the blank like you should come back to the church world. Oh, and I'm just like, "You know, I hear you. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. Yeah, but if I were to go down that road, I'm saying no to me in a lot of ways." And what makes my approach and my style and the the gifts that you're seeing in me, the thing that makes them come alive. Yes, there's obviously a divine aspect to it, but it's also because I've cultivated those things intentionally. I put the focus on developing strong relationships with people and hearing stories and creating a space where people feel safe to unload. And I don't necessarily preach at them. I don't tell them how to believe or what to believe. I of course, make it known where I come from, but I just have a welcoming, opening spirit about it. And as I have opportunity to, you know, I'll share my beliefs or whatever the case may be. But that's not my starting line. And I feel like if I were to go back into the church world, they get to define what the start line is, and then that just jumbles my whole style and approach and what makes me me. Um, so yeah, that was a big wake up point from the career perspective. Um, from a more personal but connected realm. This year has been a year of me realizing just how many unmet needs I have, and how I've so desperately tried to fill those by doing all the things when I could have just said from the start, "Hey! I don't feel very seen right now." Or "Hey, I'm just exhausted and I haven't had fun in weeks. I need to just get out and have some fun." Um, and so the way that came to the surface, it was it was kind of ugly. I was in a group meeting with some guys at church.

Who I feel completely comfortable with and as evidenced by my behavior in this particular meeting. But we were talking about Scripture passage that talks about how God will not allow us to be tested beyond what we can bear. I stop short of taking my Bible and chucking it up the floor. I really wanted to. But I said, "Guys, this is such bullshit. This does not make any sense. God does allow us to be tested beyond what we can bear. Like, I don't see a way out. A lot of times I don't see a way out. I just think this is complete garbage." And then I had their attention, so I kept going. And at that time, my family was walking through a pretty challenging season. And so this group as well intentioned as they were, they would say things to me like, "Oh, we're praying for you. We're interceding for your family. Like you're going to have victory soon." So after telling them that the verse was BS, I just looked at them and said, "I need you to stop praying for me. Like, at some point I need you guys to just step up and be the answer to those prayers that you keep praying. Like, I don't need to know you're praying for me. Like, do something." And then there was this long pregnant pause. And I think it's safe to say this individual is my best friend. I'll use that label. He just looks me square in the eye and he says, "Ben, I hear you. But you never tell us what you need. You're always so busy doing all the things. What do you need?" And it hit me square between the eyes. And I was like "Huh? Well. I'm exhausted. I'm having surgery next week. My family life is just really struggling right now. I can't remember the last time I had a fun night out, so I said I just need some fun." And what do you know? This friend, he's like, "All right, well, set Friday night aside. We're going to go have fun." And he set up a night of axe throwing. And then we went to a bourbon bar and had a flight of cocktails. And then we went and walked around downtown at the Art Prize. It's a big national art competition. So we went and walked around downtown, saw some exhibits, I just look at that experience. And yes, I was very passionate about the verse and what I thought about it. And yes, I certainly did tell my friends to stop praying. But what's behind that? What was behind that was me feeling like I had unmet needs and I never expressed them. So, it was almost as if I was allowing my anger and my frustration. To somehow fill those unmet needs. And it wasn't working. And then my friend is like, "Dude, for real, what do you need? And I told them and he made it happen." That was like, probably one of the most powerful, like life-giving things that somebody's done for me. Like, he heard me. He heard my cry I need, I need to just have some fun. I need a night out where there's no expectation or pressure. And he made it happen and he wouldn't let me pay. And there was a third friend who joined us. He paid for all the drinks and the food and just like. It was that easy. I just had to say what I needed.

Dawn Taylor

That is so beautiful. If nothing else, then I'm so grateful that you got that amazing gift.

Ben Kraker

It was such a gift, and it makes me wonder how many gifts have I missed out on because I'm so concerned with giving that gifts to others. Like, why don't I deserve that gift as well?

Dawn Taylor

I love you, but I love me more. Right? I have so many thoughts going through my head right now. It was she could hear how busy my brain is in a good way, but it's there's so many lessons out of that story, even for people. Listening is number one - ask. Don't assume that anybody actually knows what you need. Don't assume that by them being like, "hHey, I'm struggling." Right? Sometimes it's funny how I have friends that always say like, they're like, "You're the best person in the middle of an emergency." Like you'll just like, step in and do. And I always laugh and I said, you know, I was talking to a friend about this recently and I said, "Yes, I do. I step in and I do. I'm not the person who's going to sit with you and cry with you and grieve with you in that way. Like, I'm not always going to be like that soft, that soft person. I will be 100% if you need that, if that is what you need. But I’m also like the best, and then we went back to her house and I was like, "Okay, cool. Now let me teach you how to make a few easy meals that you can eat within your dietary restrictions right now." And she just laughed at me. She's like, "You're hilarious.' And I said, I think there's been so many times in my life where that's what I needed. Right where I needed somebody to be like, you don't need to figure this out because let me step in is like your logistics coordinator right now and figure this out for you and. You know, if we all did that for someone around us. Right? And not in a way of like, "I'm going to do this every single day and I'm going to give to the point of I'm burnt out again." Like, please, please, listeners, don't. This is not a quote adding more to your plate to burn out. But if you're in the middle of the burnout, if you're in the middle of the overwhelm, if you're in the middle of that. Look at what is it, if there is even one thing that somebody could do, ask for it. But here's the caveat on that. Allow them to say no. If they can't. Allow them to say no if they don't have the capacity, and then ask someone else. Right?

Ben Kraker

Yeah. There's such a fear of asking among, I would say, our generation. Like, asking it just means I need something and I don't want to be needy. I don't want to be. Like, I always feel like if I ask for help, if I say what I need, then suddenly the perception of me from those around me goes from a, you know, is this solid dude. He's always there in a pinch. He loves to help people. He's got a big heart. Well, if I say, "Guys, I need to have some fun." Like, my fear in that moment is they're going to see me as weak. They're going to see me as like, not having it all together and like. So, me asking is going to knock their perception of me down several notches, and I just don't want to deal with that. Like I want to maintain the level I have with them. I worked so hard to get there. But the reality is it's the opposite. Because when I ask for what I need, that increases their perception of me, because I've just been honest with them, and I showed them I was vulnerable enough to show them this is something I really need. And that does far more to build the relationship up than trying to fake it and be all things to everybody else.

Dawn Taylor

Always. And always does. So interesting. Like we are so scared to ask for help. I was going through some crazy treatments, but a year, year and a half, two years ago now. And yeah, it was it started about two years ago and I was, you know, 4 or 5 days a week, up to eight hours a day, doctor's appointments and IV treatments. And my body was shutting down like it was rough. It was a really rough time in my life. And one of my guy friends. One night he called me and he's like, what are you doing? And I said, just finishing off my IV, we're almost done. And he's like, okay. He's like, "What do you need?" And I loved it because he didn't ask, how are you doing? Hey, what's going on? How are you doing? It was none of that. He's like, "What do you need?" And I was like, "I don't even know." And I always I often talk with clients about the infant check. And it's like the minute we're going through something hard or the minute we're feeling overwhelmed, it's like, do the infant check. Have you pooped? Have you peed? Have you had water? Have you been fed? Have you slept? Are your clothes pinching you? Right. Like go through your list of your infant things to be like, okay, basic, basic needs. Not even like anything huge like basic needs. What do you need? And he's like, "Okay, drive to my house. Can you get to my house?" And I said, "Yeah, why?" And he's like, "Just come to my house." And I said, "Okay." And I drove over there and, you know, his wife and his baby were there. And he laid me on his couch with my head on a pillow. He put a blanket over me. He handed me his phone for one of my favorite restaurants, and I pick my order. He's like, just pick what you want, I don't care. Pick what you want. He's like, "So you're not feeling good. You just want your comfort sometimes." And he's like, "I know it's chaotic in my house and it's loud and there's like a hockey game going on in the background, and there's all that, like there's a baby crying." And like, there was all this mayhem, but he's like, "You're not alone. Just hang out. And when you're tired," he's like, "if you have the energy to drive home or back to the hotel where I was staying, he's like, you're good. If not, we'll drive you and drive your vehicle." And I have thanked him so many times for that, that in the middle of those times. It was like, thank you for just taking over one of my basic needs,

Ben Kraker

Right? It makes all the difference.

Dawn Taylor

It makes all the difference.

Ben Kraker

Ueah. And that same friend that asked me, what do you need? So that was the weekend before my surgery that I recently had day after surgery. He texted me and he's like, "Hey, I'm bringing us lunch. What do you want from such and such restaurant?" And I was like, "That's amazing. Thank you." nd so I thought this was going to be like an Uber Eats thing where he picks up the food and drops it off at my door. Oh, no. He came in with his backpack and the food and we finished eating, and he's like, "I got to hop on a meeting for work. It'll be about an hour. Is it okay if I use your office upstairs?" I was like, "Well, I'm not using it, so go ahead." And I'm like, this is really peculiar. My friend brought me lunch. He stayed to hang out and talk. He's upstairs in my space on a meeting, and he's going to come back down. And we're going to keep talking. What is going on? But it's the same thing he saw a need. I need to eat. I'm in pretty rough shape after surgery. So he just inserted himself in. The crazy thing about all of this is I let him were a year ago, it would have been so easy to say, hey, thanks for bringing me lunch. I'm sure you're busy. You can go on your way. So, yeah. Getting your needs met also requires you to be a little awkward sometimes, because that was that was awkward. I mean, who brings work stuff and lunch? And then, yeah, I mean, it's just like, what is going on?

Dawn Taylor

I would. I have no shame. I have zero shame. You know what? I love that though. So for somebody who is dealing with burnout. Whether it's from the church or it's from social media or it's from just life in general. What are some steps that you could give? What are some tips that you could give, some red flags? Something. Something to help them even realize what's going on?

Ben Kraker

Yeah. For me, the things that I did and this is going back to my friendship with Jason. When that fell apart, there were so many things in my life that were falling apart. And it was all because I had so many unmet needs and I was expecting other people to meet those needs, but I never told them what they were. And so that obviously, has an impact on relationships. I just needed a reset. So. I took myself off of social media, I put a post up saying something like under construction and just wrote a note signing out. For now, I need some space. So I did that and I actually stayed committed to it. And I think I was addicted because there were definitely just those withdrawals of, “Oh man, I got to get back on there.” Did pretty good resisting those for the most part. So that was number one. Just stop social media. Like your world, your life is going to go on. Even if you don't have access to your Facebook or your Instagram. And in fact, your life is probably going to improve, or you're going to see your life differently when you're not looking at it through the lens of social media and everybody else. So, that's the biggest one. The second was related to that, and that was silence or turn off all notifications on my phone unless they truly were urgent. Like, I would never silence my wife and my kids. But turning off notifications for all the messaging apps, I don't need to see them live as they come in. Like, I can set aside the time at the end of the day where I pick up my phone and check the messaging apps and get in touch with people, but I don't need to be notified in the moment when somebody reaches out to me and I don't even need to reply in the moment. So, turning off the notifications and giving myself freedom to not be bound to my phone helped a lot too. Those were the two foundational pieces, and by doing those things, I gave myself so much more mental space with which I was able to think about the things that I needed. I was able to voice the pain or the frustration that I was trying to mute by using social media and staying connected to people. Like, I journaled so much during that time and it was so transformational. So maybe it's not social media and maybe it's not the phone notifications, but I guarantee if you're feeling burned out in life, there is something that is overwhelming you and it's not essential. It's not mission critical and you can turn it off. So whatever that is for you. Turn off the demands. Turn off the things that cry out for your attention. Obviously, you can't get rid of everything. Parents, you can't mute your kids, unfortunately. But what are the things that can be muted? What can you put aside? What can you do to give yourself some margin? Because all those things that hold you captive are burning you out, and it's just not worth it. 

Dawn Taylor

I 100% agree with all of the above. And especially with the things burning you out, are based on other people's expectations of us. 

Ben Kraker

Well, man. Yeah. It's when this episode airs, 

Dawn Taylor

it's going to be close. Well, probably close to Christmas. It'll be in the next couple of months. And one of the things that we did a couple of years ago with my husband's side of the family is his youngest brother and wife and kids come to visit, and they're not big Christmas people like, they don't love Christmas. And tied to their own stuff, right? Childhood vacations, different things. Just not, was never really raised in the normal. Like family gathering get together for Christmas in Canada kind of thing, right? It was always in Hawaii and different things that have slowed down. Now they have kids and. I sat down and I realized how overwhelmed I was feeling by Christmas and hosting, because we host every single year, and it's my family and then his family and then my family and his family. Right. And we host. And it's always like large amounts of people and food and long periods of time. And it's incredible. We love it. But it was feeling very, very overwhelming. And I sat down and phoned my sister in law and I was like, “Give me your two things.” And she was like, what was like, “What are your favorite two parts of Christmas?” And she went, “Your chip dip and games.” And I'm like, “Perfect, what are your husband’s?” And his was like, play, watching a movie or something and stuffing or I don't remember what it was. It was like his two things that he loved. And then my husband had his two and I had my two, and I was like, “Those are the eight things we're doing for Christmas.” so, I love lights on a tree, did not put a single decoration on. It was like the lights are my favorite parts. I'm not going to put anything else on it. So we had a decorated, we had like a lit tree and that was it because that was one of my things. One of my things was looking at Christmas lights after Christmas Eve service. So even though they are not church goers, we all went and looked at, like, we went to church. We went and looked at the lights and came back. But we didn't do a turkey dinner. We didn't do any of the big food stuff. We didn't didn't do any of the baking like we did zero presents. We took all of the things off the list that were the normal society's ideas of what Christmas looks like, and we had the best Christmas ever. And I talked to her a few weeks ago because they're coming again this year. And she's like, “That was the greatest Christmas. Can we do that again?” And was like, “Yep, let me know what your two things are and we can do it again.” But even last year, like I had 13 people in my house over and for ten days, we had a very full house, and my husband and I sat down and I was like, “You know, all the things that stressed me out are going to go. So I'm not going to make a turkey dinner.” And he was like, “what?” And I was like, “it's way too much time and prep and work. And that last half an hour before it gets on the table, and then everyone's exhausted and all the dishes that go with it.” And you know what? I don't think one person actually cared, but I smoked a brisket and we had mashed potatoes and cornbread and like, we had this amazing feast. I bought all the baking. I just bought a ton of baking from amazing bakeries through to my fridge and freezer. And I was like, “I'm not cooking, I'm not baking.” And we had a blast. We had so much fun. And it wasn't, the hours and hours and hours and hours of prep and cleanup and wake up early and go to bed late. And the chaos, the chaos that it usually is. And talking to my nieces and nephews about it. They loved it like we had such a good time and so especially this time of year. I find we need to learn how to say “No, not now.” And it might not be a no forever, but it's just right now. No. Not now. 

Ben Kraker

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

And that's okay. That is okay. So really look at that. What are the expectatio ns? Are there expectations to go to a million parties and expectations to do all the family photos and expectations to go sledding and do this and do that and right. What if you just didn't? Right?

Ben Kraker

Normalize saying no.

Dawn Taylor

Normalize saying no and figuring out what your intention is behind the behavior that's causing the burnout. What is the need that's needing to be met? Are you doing it because someone else is expecting it of you? Are you doing it to make yourself feel good about something? Or are you doing it, right? What is your intention behind it? Your intention might be pure. Your intention might not actually be horrible. 

Ben Kraker

There's no other way to get that intention, though that doesn't involve burning yourself out.

Dawn Taylor

Oh, And knowing that at the end of the day, you can actually choose the one. You don't need to feel shame for that.

Ben Kraker

Yes. You know, from the Christian perspective, so many scriptures get twisted. Everybody says, well, I need to love my neighbor. Like, that should be my priority.

Well, what's the whole verse say? It says, love your neighbor. How? As you love yourself. My interpretation is you can't love your neighbor if you don't love yourself. If you're not taking time to fill your own cup, how dare you try to fill somebody else's? You're just going to be pouring nothing into them and that's harmful. That just perpetuates burnout. So love yourself like it's okay if God loves you deeply and unconditionally. Perhaps we should do the same for ourselves and allow ourselves grace, and allow ourselves whatever it is we need to fill up that bucket so that we can love our neighbor. And there's another verse that I've heard used, talking about how we should think of ourselves with sober judgment and don't think more highly of yourself than you ought. It's those last three words that always get me. He doesn't say, “Don't think highly of yourselves.” It just says, “Don't think more highly of yourself than you ought.” Like there's a standard. It's okay to think highly of yourself. Just don't overdo it. That's all it's saying. It's not saying anything about rejecting yourself or rejecting who you are, or rejecting your needs in order to elevate other people. No, the baseline is it's okay to think highly of yourself. Just don't think more highly than you should.

Oh, I love it. You and I could talk about this all day, but out of respect for your time, let's do a few quick closing questions. If anybody wants to get a hold of Ben, though, we'll put his contact info in the show notes. If you had to describe yourself in one sentence, what would it be? A word, a sentence, a phrase, a quote. 

Ben Kraker 

That's a really good question. Um, I think I would go back to the, there was a personality test that I took. The fact that I have to go back and look at it is funny. I'll do the ones I can remember. Restore. Uh, connectedness. Um, those two for sure. Like, I see myself as somebody who has the ability to restore what's been broken to help people and chiefly myself to be able to identify in my own life. What are the desert areas that need to be transformed into wellsprings? And as I do that for myself, it enables me to do it for others. So restoration is a big deal. And then connectedness. I'm always looking for, how is this thing connected to that thing? Or what's the commonality between me and this customer that I'm working with at work, or this individual who just joined my group? What do they have in common with the rest of us? My brain is just wired for connection, whether it's relational or spatial connection matters to me because it helps me to realize that I'm not in this by myself, that I'm surrounded by some incredible people. 

I would dare say even you, Dawn, I mean like. This is a pretty cool connection that we had here tonight. So restore and connection, I would say, are the two words that describe me.

Dawn Taylor

I love it. What is one thing you spend a silly amount of money on? 

Ben Kraker

Uh, well, behind me, I have this little diffuser on my other desk over there. I love essential oils, and I love the smell. And this diffuser has, like, an LED light on it. And it shows the vapor as if it were like flames. Um, so I like things that help me, um, I don't know. I think things that I find cool, I spend a lot of money on Amazon is really what I'm trying to say, that just stand out to me as cool and novel. I love to collect those things. Amazing. And what is the last one? What is the number one place that you want to go on your bucket list item? Right now you're on your bucket list.

Ben Kraker

Um. you know, it's a place that I've been. But it's a place that I treasure and has such a special place in my heart. Sisters Rock State Park in, it's close to Brookings, Oregon. Think it's I can't remember the name of the city, but it was just a place that was introduced to me by  a hitchhiker, of all people, that was driving to the coast, and they were like, “We have to stop over here.” And I was like, “Do you need to use the bathroom?” And she was like, “No, we just need to stop. I need to show you something.” And I was like, This woman is crazy. Why did you pick her up?” But we get out of the car and we take this trail down to these beautiful rock formations. Kind of similar to what you saw in Cannon Beach, but like times ten, like there's sea caves and there's just it's just magical type of place. 

Dawn Taylor

And now I want to go there.

Ben Kraker

Yeah. So I just love it. I've been there probably 3 or 4 times and it's so out of the way like, there's no reason you would go to Gold Port, I think is the name of the city. It's just a little podunk city between Brookings and California and. But man, it's beautiful. So if I could find a way to get there quickly, I would go in a heartbeat.

Dawn Taylor

Oh my goodness. Okay, so I don't know about everybody else listening. We're all going to be googling this place now and trying to figure out how to get there. Because I want to place, thank you, thank you, thank you, Ben, for hanging out with with us today and for the listeners. I hope that's something you heard at home that maybe shifted to something inside of you and that you reach out to myself, to somebody else, to a friend, to a pastor. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Reach out and ask for support. Ask for help. Ask for what it is you need, and give people an opportunity to show up for you in ways you could never imagine. Join us again in two weeks for another amazing conversation. Please tell your friends. The more people that feel understood and seen and heard, the better in our world today. Check out the show notes located at the Taylor Waka for more information and for all of Ben's contact information. So that if you have questions about any of these things or just you're like, hey dude, what was that place again? And I don't want to listen to the podcast, whatever. Just if you need to reach out, there will be contact information there. Subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you love the show, please, please, please leave a rating and review. See you guys in a couple of weeks.