Dawn Taylor| 18/12/2023

Transcript

Dawn Taylor

I am your host, Dawn Taylor. And oh my goodness, are we going to have an amazing conversation today. Today we are talking to Katherine Spino. What is the topic? Oh, I don't know, maybe Scientology. So before we get started, I want you to know that Katherine is safe. We did have a conversation prior to this recording to make sure, because we've all seen the stuff on the TV and the news and the media and the celebrities on how they can go after you and harm you and all of that fun. And she is safe. So just we're going to put that out there right away. But we're going to dive in. We're going to dive into what her childhood was like being raised in the Sea Org. What should it do to get out all of the things? So yeah, without further ado, I introduce you to the most amazing powerhouse and positive human. Katherine, welcome to the show, Katherine. 

Katherine Spallino

Hi. Thanks so much for having me. Um, love your words. It's funny because I've been reading your book and it's like, I feel like there's so many similarities in us. Like, we're both like, we're, you know, go getters, I guess. So, like, excited to talk to you. And we could delve into, I mean we have different lives that have happened to us, but like how you can overcome it or come through it and still be a strong, generally happy person, 

Dawn Taylor

Right? Forgive Catherine's audio. She has a little bit of some congestion going on, so bear with it guys because this conversation, so Catherine wrote a book about her early years of escaping Sea Org. So for anyone who doesn't know what is Sea Org? 

Katherine Spallino

So this is the inner circle of Scientology. It's like you could picture, like, a priest or nun. It's like, well, they actually work for the Church of Scientology. They're not just parishioners. And my parents were working. They signed what's called a billion year contract. So, a billion years of their lives to work for the Sea Org. And in doing so, they dedicated my life. I was a baby born into the Sea Org, to work for the Church of Scientology. So from the time I was a baby, I was like, “Yep, this is what I'm doing.” Or, like, six years old. I could actually remember these memories of knowing I'm going to join the Sea Org. This is what I'll be doing. So that's the Sea Org basically is run military-style kind of. And there's a commanding officer and there's, everybody has jobs and they have to do the jobs all relate to distributing Scientology to the world or to the public. And my parents, because I was in a Sea Org, they sent me away by the time I was eight years old to a boarding school that was only for sea children to raise these children to be future members. So we're like little mini-soldiers, and they consider children, adults in small bodies. So I wasn't really treated like a child. 

Dawn Taylor

Before that, you were even sent away to the ranch, so for anyone listening, the link to her book is in the show notes, contact, whatever. Like it's all in the show notes. You guys need to read this book. It's intense and it's wild. So, let's break down a little bit of like, what that was like. So even prior to that you were really like, so going out to the ranch, which is the school, you were even still like, you lived on a different floor than your parents in different buildings. So you hadn't been sent away yet, but you were already very divided from your family at a very young age, like, weren't you six? 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. So the book is called The Bag. Didn't even say that. Sorry. It follows me because I'm what's considered a cadet. As somebody who joined the Sea Org. By the time I'm six years old. I'm not quite a cadet yet, but I am separated from my parents and live in a dorm with other girls and have a dorm mom who's not my mom. And ironically, my mom is a dorm mom for other kids, not for me. So I would just see her in passing. And that is until I'm eight years old. And I would see my parents only on Sunday mornings for a few hours when they had what's called CSP time, which is like cleaning your room time, do your laundry, and also hang out with your child while you're doing these things. It's not like you would go out to breakfast together or anything, so sometimes you would get ice cream after laundry. That was a treat, you know? But by the time I'm eight years old, I get an actually, to be honest, in the book you find out I'm actually nine years old, but I thought I was eight. Like, that's how little connection I had about my life. And I get sent to the school that's an hour from Los Angeles, north in the mountains, and I'm just with other children, and we all have jobs. And like, this is how we are operating like little mini members at this school that's called the Canyon Oaks. it's like half school, half work. Like I'm also working out on the fields or I'm working in the galley cooking food for the other cadets, um, things of that nature. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, it was like a full job. Like you're gone away from your family. And one of the things that, one of the statements you made at one point in the book was talking about how, like, you just, like, craved this, like even seeing your mom across the room. And having that acknowledgement of like, even hoping to catch her eye. And you like, lived for that. You lived for those moments. But then when you go out to the ranch, you also got paid and you found out that you no longer got a paycheck because you didn't even have, like, you didn't have any of the government ID saying that you would ever even been born. Parents had never gotten that. So you then worked forever, you know, with no money, like you had no money, yet expected to act like an adult. And, you know, not having underwear or shoes or any of those things and nobody really caring. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. As an adult. I look back, I'm like, how is nobody like, you know. Hey, here's some shoes for you. Hey, let me get you this. Hey, you're not getting paid. So instead, we'll provide you with this. But instead, I was just, like, left to my own devices and in my journals, which I use to write my book. You could see this, like, shame I have for myself. Or I'm, like, embarrassed. But I have to act like I don't care that I don't have shoes and I can't afford to buy underwear. Like, I feel like it's my responsibility. I don't feel like it's anybody else's. Even though I was nine, ten, 11 years old. And it's very strange to look back on, um, for sure. 

Dawn Taylor

Well, and especially now that you're a parent, right? Like, you're out of it and you're a parent. That must be just wild to look at and look at your own children and think, how, how did that come to be? So when, let's backtrack a ways, right? When did your parents join Scientology?

Katherine Spallino 

 My mom was like I would say, early 30s and my dad a little bit older than that. And they met in New York City. So, she ran into somebody on the subway who she'd gone to high school with, who was into Scientology. And they're like, this is amazing. You gotta check it out. And my mom grew up in a very Pentecostal household, super strict. She had to wear, like, long skirts. I find this all out later when I'm in my 20s, but this because I wanted to understand why she found Scientology and she was so restricted. And she she said when she found Scientology. She felt like it. One of the things they told you is freedom. Or like knowing yourself or freedom of truth. It's just like what they like, tell you all the time. Like, you know what? You know, it's all about empowerment. And then later on you find out that it's not really the case. But for her, she felt like that was like her salvation in a way like this. She could finally find independence. And my dad, I actually don't know. He was like, I've lost close to my dad, so I just tended to not have these conversations. 

Dawn Taylor

Your dad was gone, like literally across the tree from you the majority of your childhood. He was in Florida and you were in California. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. And so at least I got to see my mom, like, a lot till I was like eight like or a lot as an in passing. And then I do know from talking with her, also my 20s, that she didn't nurse me for the first 12 weeks. So I think that, like, skin to skin care probably also really bonded us because I have still to this day, a lot of love for my mom. Um, yeah. And we could talk about what's happening with my parents currently if you want to. Or we could come to that later. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, we'll come back to that. So growing up as a cadet. You're this little army girl, right? Your rebelliousness. It started to show up. It started to show up fairly young. From the anger, the outbursts, the randomly running away one day and somebody bringing you back. At what age? Some about two thirds of the way through your book. At what age did you start to go, hey, wait a second. This isn't okay. How did you come to that? 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, I was an avid reader and would read all the time, and I would be like, wait, they don't have to go work in the fields, or they get to see their parents every day. Like these comparisons, like Ride Sweet Valley High or even Goosebumps or, you know, all of them have a backdrop of a family. Baby-Sitters club. I was reading all of these books and I was like, that's kind of unfair. You know, like, I want to be able to just like, be able to hang out with my family and they do things for me, or they're taking me to soccer or things like that, because I didn't even have, like, sports, you know, like it was just P.E. and I was really just do whatever you want at sometimes we go like rollerblading or we did have horses, so we would go horseback riding. You got to, like, sign up ahead of time because it was only like four rideable horses, 200 kids. So, it's not like you could do that all the time. Um, so it was very these little, like, moments when I would be reading and I'm like, oh, that looks more fun, or that kind of want to do that. But then I also have this big goal, because what I've taught for the time of a child is like, I love Ron Hubbard, who's the creator of Scientology. And he's telling me all the time and everything I'm reading and everything I'm hearing from the grownups around me that we're saving the world like our little group of kids, like we're going to be the executives in the Sea Org of Scientology, and we're going to save the world. So it's like, I'm like, oh, bummer. Like, I can't do these fun things that people do in books because, you know, I got to save the world. So it's like the soft talk where like, every time I want to just like break out and go have fun and like, go, I'm like, maybe I could go to a regular high school. Maybe I could try to do this. And then it's and then like, somehow get talked myself back into staying or someone says something to me like, hey, let's get you some auditing, which is what's the Scientology processing to like, help you be better, be a better cadet? I'm like, oh yeah, I'm not a good cadet. I always get in trouble. Maybe this is the reason. And then it turns out I don't like that. But then there's like another distraction where they're like, oh, all of you guys are getting to get to go now, actually join the Sea Org. I'm like, oh, it's finally happening. Maybe I'll really like being in the Sea Org to this constant like up and down of self- regulation or like my true self wants to come out and then, like, push myself back down to try to stay. And I'm thinking that there's something wrong with me that I keep wanting to leave, you know? 

Dawn Taylor

At the core of you. You knew. So we're going to pause on the how you finally got out in one piece. What is the core? So for someone listening, I know, you know, looking from the outside in, someone's like, for real. Did you actually think you were going to save the world? Like, how do people actually believe this stuff or think these things or like, buy into that, right? Like, how have you been so conditioned to buy into that, to not know that it's wrong or not know that it's not okay to have someone take your kids away or not know that, right? Like, even if you're of the leaders to the children at the ranch was not appropriate. It wasn't okay. It wasn't good behavior. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. What are the core beliefs of Scientology? Where did it show up? When did it show up like some of that? So people can understand that more and what the conditioning process even looks like? 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. So from the time I'm like a baby, it's like I've been always going once a week to this place called the Ron Hubbard Life Exhibition, and it's in Hollywood Boulevard. You could check it out. And it's just this big exhibition about the man who invented Scientology. So from the time I'm a baby, think of this man like a god. They don't call him that. But he's done so many things. He's incredible. So everything he says is true. No matter what. You can never invalidate what he says. If you do, there's something you don't understand. So that's like a really core part of me from the time I'm a child. Like, this person knows everything and can say, like, make the world a better place. It's like always what the goal is. And then for my parents, I don't see them, but in my mind I'm like, oh, because they're trying to save the world. Like my dad was an OT three supervisor and OT three, there's like all these levels that Scientology has and OT three is like on the top level. So I know he's teaching, like, amazing things. Now. It turns out OT three is about when the aliens get introduced in Scientology's doctrine. But. you don't know this when you're like really little. So when I was little, I didn't know anything about aliens. Most people I knew in Scientology, even growing up when we were like, late teens, don't know anything about the aliens because it's top secret. So, when that stuff like the South Park um, TV show comes out where they're like making fun of the aliens, we're like, they just made that up. Like, that's not at all part of Scientology. And I didn't know it was like, that's, we are only being told certain information from the time, our young age and that that is what the technology we have that Albert Hubbard invented about. It's like a lot of self-help stuff at the beginning, which do make sense, like communication and how to, what to do if you do something wrong, how to fix your, like, make up amends. Things like that are basic common life things that he wrote out. But then so, you believe all that stuff. But then on top of it, they begin to layer on the counseling and the auditing and all that indoctrination begins to follow. So, even though you're like, how could my parents just send me away from the time they first begin? It's just like basic level learning of Scientology, but as they get more into it, they're more and more, like, told, like, this is the salvation right of earth. And you've lived. They believe in reincarnation. You live so many lives. Like, can you dedicate all of your lives to save Earth now? Like, it's such a big thing to be a part of, to be proud of and then like, dedicate your own child to it as well. Thinking to my mom and she thinks I'm getting sent to a safe space. She grew up in the poor area of New York City, so she knows I'm not gonna be around gangs that are on drugs and she knows I'll be growing up in Scientology, which is like the most amazing, to her, technology. And she never got to the OT three stuff. Like to this day, she still doesn't know about the aliens. You know, so it's like, it's wild that you would be like, but why don't they progress up the bridge to know that stuff? It's like they, they, they kind of just stay in this, like, lower level part of Scientology. And then they're just enforcing getting other people to Scientology. And then some people get up to those higher levels and then maybe they go, it's too late now. Like now I have to believe in aliens, I don't know. And there must be something that happens. 

Dawn Taylor

So, it's interesting. It's very calculated. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. It's like very intentional.

Dawn Taylor

incredibly intentional, where it's like we're going to start with like one degree of this and then two degrees and three degrees. Oh, you're bought in enough. We bet we could just, like, convince you of a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more until you're fully believing in aliens. 

Katherine Spallino

And to be clear, like all these people in this, they believe everything they're doing is a good thing. Like they don't, there's not, like, somebody like even David Miscavige, the leader of Scientology, who's like a total whack job. Like if you read about all the stuff he does, he probably totally believes everything and probably is now skewed it in his mind where he's like the leader, like the Ron Hubbard of it, because Alan Hubbard died in the 80s and David Miscavige did a crazy coup and everything that the CIA members don't really know about. But yeah, he believes that Scientology, he probably actually truly believes that Scientology is like everyone's salvation. It's just, he's doing it as a pyramid scheme where they're like raising all this money and all that money goes towards either lawyers to sue people who are attacking Scientology or for buying land. There's so many churches, Scientology around in every major city, almost in the world. It's wild. It's like the Catholic Church or something, like they're putting their money into that. Um, but like my parents think when they're doing their work, my mom was a letter registrar in the end, like the last bit when I was in the Sea Org. And that's just writing letters to parishioners telling them. She just does that all day. Imagine that. Just every day, seven days a week, writing letters barely get time off, but your brain is going to just start being like, all like a loop, right? Like if you, like, have nothing to challenge you or stimulate you, you're going to just be like, I think this is how they keep these letter writers. They're just like working really hard, long hours, not a lot of time off. So not a lot of time to think and really think about what you're doing is my thought for why some people stay in the Sea for so long, because it's not a good existence. It's very, like, dull and boring and you get yelled at a lot and a lot of pressure to sell products of Scientology and so on. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay. How do I say this? Sorry, need to think about that for a second. There's so much. like, I could talk to you about this all day. And for anyone in my inner circle, you know that I am, like, weirdly obsessed with cults and the idea and the beliefs and how they do it and how we just, like, lose ourselves in them. Right? So you're at the ranch? 

Katherine Spallino

Yes. 

Dawn Taylor

You get the call to now you get to move up to be like the full adult as part of this, at 14 years old.

Katherine Spallino

Yes. I've done certain qualifications called the A, B and C, which are low level eighth grade reading, math and writing. Like I wrote a long essay that was like 100 words. I could do eighth grade math and I could do, I think it was really like sixth grade math, to be honest. And then the reading was like vocabulary, eighth grade vocabulary words. And that's enough. I'm ready to be an adult.

Dawn Taylor

Which is wild, but also keep in mind like you're like, everyone is working for them. They're barely paying you, right? So like, nobody has money. Nobody has to even think about doing anything. And you literally are like living in their properties, living in their spaces, being fed by them, everything. There is a weird safety like that does make sense to my brain in some ways. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. So for some people it's very safe. Yeah, everything's taken care of. You also don't make decisions. Everything you want to do, you have to ask somebody. So there's something if you're somebody who doesn't like to make decisions and has anxiety, maybe it's nice to just always have to request permission for things or be told what to do. I don't like that as a person. Like innately. Told what to do all the time really bothered me. And it always seemed like this is like non-sequitur. Why are you telling me to do this? Like, that was my instinct. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. You'd have, like, attacks and like, lose it and swearing at them and stuff and getting in trouble and then having to be ignored and shunned from the people as part of the punishment. Right? Oh, no. Guys, you literally just have to read this book because there's no way we could fit all of this into an hour or even like five hours, right? So at 14, where did you go?

Katherine Spallino 

So, at 14 years old, I leave the ranch that get sent to this. seeing this big blue building with the Scientology cross on the internet. That's where I was and that's where my parents lived. And that and so I go there and get put on what's called a boot camp but it's called the Estates project for us. And now I'm doing even more labor. Have to run everywhere and like, can't even get dessert after dinner because I have to get through this program. Like, so this is like a few month program where I'm just studying some Scientology courses. Some of them have already done before, before I could officially join the Sea Org. And of course, when I'm doing that, I'm like, oh, this is just like the cadet org, but worse in a way, because at least at the cadet org, we would sometimes go to the beach here and there. If they would like, we would have fun moments. Now they're stripping even more of the fun. So eventually I start acting out and I get sent back to the ranch. So this is like, you'll follow me on the journey in my book because there's so much, like back and forth with me as a child. Try to figure myself out, and they're trying to put me like a circle into a square or a square to a circle, and it's just not working. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, like not working at all. So this goes back and forth and back and forth and back and forth in the middle of this. So you also have siblings 1.1s that are part of this that you're never really seeing. And they're on their own journeys within this. So at what point did you get out of it? Because there's multiple things like you get out of the Sea Org, but then you had to actually leave Scientology, which are two very different things. So how did you end up and at what point did you finally go like, no, no, no, I have to get out of this. 

Katherine Spallino

Um, so in the Sea Org, if you read the book, you're going to follow me as I like, keep going. In that same journey I'm talking about where, like, I'm trying to be good. I'm trying to be what's called in-ethics. There's a lot of words in Scientology that are totally made up. They have a big technical dictionary, and one of them in-ethics is being good and like listening and following direction. And I'm constantly being in-ethics, that being in-ethics. And it's eventually I'm just like I need to like. So, I'm also told the outside world is really bad. Everybody does drugs. They're promiscuous, like I'm told. Like where we are is safe and where out there as bad. But eventually a part of me is going to win out where I just want to have fun, believe it or not. Like, it's just like, I need to go have a life like, this is not a life here. And I have to figure out where am I going to stay, who will like, because my parents are in the Sea Org and I barely know their extended family. So how is that going to work? What will it be like? And I'm determined. Like I could do it. I won't be promiscuous. I won't take drugs. I could go have a life and still be a great Scientologist and donate all my money to Scientology. Like, I literally thought that was a good thing to do is like, give away my money to sign algae. And so when I'm in the real world, I experienced this culture shock, which actually does give you a second book called The Bad Scientologist, where I'm trying to be a Scientologist in the real world, and it's watching me sort through the actual life world and what Scientology says is the world, and having to sort that out and decide, wait, what is actually true? And luckily I have ,like, the brains to like, I don't know, you have to question things. And a lot of people that I grew up with, all of my friends, the half of them are still in the Sea Org, are still cadets, but most are 40 years old. They cannot have children in this year because that was another push for me to leave. I wanted to have kids and I do have kids, so I have three kids. Yay for me. I have a husband. I have a really happy life outside of it. So I got to find what I actually wanted, which was to go create a life for myself, be able to make my own choices, and have a husband and children. But how do I get there? It's because I have perseverance. I'm curious and I ask questions and don't just accept when people are like, this is the way it is. And I actually had something happen though, in the church where they made it even easier for me to leave because one of my brothers got really sick and they said, they pull me into the church and they're like, hey, you need to come into the church. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm going to come. You guys going to see how good I am, I'm only 20 years old. I have been working at the school that's affiliated with Scientology called Delphi Academy. I'm a teacher there. Like, you guys are going to be so impressed by me. And instead they sit me down and they tell me, your family cannot talk to you anymore. Your mom, your dad and your brother and your sister who are still in there because Philip is getting sick and we know you're the cause. And I'm like, what? Yes, this literally happened because there was something called the PTS person, which is a potential trouble source and a Suppressive Person. Um, my brother was getting sick, so that's a trouble source. Who's suppressing him? It's got to be a sister who left the Sea Org. Even though I was doing nothing wrong, saying nothing negative about it, I still was a Scientologist, and I believed in Scientology. I just wasn't really practicing it because I was having fun living my life. But at least I worked at a school that was doing Scientology studies and stuff. So in my mind, I couldn't, like, it still doesn't make sense. They screwed themselves over just with their own high horse. Like just horrible way of behaving where you just blame a random person for somebody being sick. Um, so then my parents can talk to you, me and my brother. And it was a few months of that. And meanwhile I met my husband, Ryan, boyfriend at the time, but he is not a Scientologist, and I was, he was able to be like, hey, you're not your normal like happy go lucky stuff. Like what, is something going on? You could talk to me about it. And having someone I could actually talk to and not worry about. So something else that happens in Scientology I know there's so much to unwrap is if you say something negative about Scientology, you will get written up like Big Brother, like 1984, George Orwell's novel. So I couldn't talk about what was going on with my parents, and my brother couldn't see me anymore. I had to hold in this pain because I didn't want to get written up. I also felt like maybe I did do something wrong, even though I knew I didn't, and my husband, boyfriend at the time was just like, you could tell me, I'll never be a Scientologist. Nothing to do with your religion. Just personally. I'm a Christian. It's not for me. And I was like, oh good. Like I won't ruin his chance for total freedom. And so I was able to talk to him and, like, unload everything and just hearing myself say everything out loud that my parents and my brother couldn't talk to me because Scientology was saying I was creating a sickness and my brother’s cancer was still actually, I still took a while. But saying it out helped me begin that process. And from there, I was able to absorb other moments in Scientology that we're not okay and how money hungry it is. And then I start to go on the internet because they tell you not to go on the internet, because everything on the internet is false. Media is always wrong. So, that's a sign for anybody who's in a cult. If that person or a group is telling you everybody else is wrong, they have the answer only you're probably in a relationship or in a group that is trying to control what you're learning. And so I began to go on the internet. I began to read books, watch documentaries. Highly recommend Going Clear on HBO or Leah Remini show The Aftermath. Two of my best friends were on that show, but that was, like, The Aftermath was way down the road. But Going Clear came out around then, and Janet Reitman's Inside Scientology. So good. So that was how I got myself out, was getting information myself. Yeah.

28:40

So. You're a kid with no access to family, no access to anything. Currently, to this day, you 

don't have access to your parents because really, they're owned by the church. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, well, they think that I'm a suppressive person, so they don't want to talk to me anymore, which is so sad. So I actually managed to reach them because I've been doing interviews on there's a group called SPTV on YouTube. If anybody wants to hear more, if they're more visual, and that's how they like to learn more about Scientology, that's a great resource to go to. And Aaron Smith Levin was kind of like the leader from that. He was on The Aftermath show, Leah Remini, so I was on an interview with him and somebody he knew who had just rescued their mom from the Sea Org. I knew that mom who knew my parents and knew where they were, so I didn't know where they were. And so she gave him their number for that place because I had no phone number. Like, I couldn't even contact them. So, then I was able to call my parents and they acted like everything was completely normal. So, they did come back and contact me when my brother was sick. And then they left me again. They stopped talking to me again when one of my best friend was on Leah Remini show, so I'd been six years from that point. So they had met my twins. I had baby twins in that time. I had a three year old and they would come visit every year. And then after that, boom, it's just stopped after Leah Remini show. So, this was the first time a few months ago, and I talked to my parents and I told them, I love you guys. Like there's no reason for you to not see me. We could disagree on things. You could do Scientology and I would still love you. Come visit. And my book had not come out yet, and they were just like, oh, my book had come out when I talked to them. Sorry, because this was the interviews and my mom's like, yeah, I just have to talk to my ethics officer. So like, that's the control. Like, her brain's like, I can't just go see my daughter. Like, I have to make sure it's allowed. And then she said, are you still seeing your friend Marion, who was on the show? Marion Francis? And I'm like. Why does it matter? Like she's my best friend. Why would I cut her out? She's allowed to speak her truth. Like, please be my mom again, you know? And unfortunately, the next day, like, I tried to call again, the phone line was disconnected and now I can't get through to them. I'm like, oh my gosh. It's just sad because, like, they're just, they're in the 70s now. Like, let them go. Let them see their family. There's no reason to do this except for I'm evil. But you already said I was evil before I'd even done anything. Like, now I have this book out. Now, I'm speaking out on Scientology. Scientology is like asking me to do it, right. It's like I wasn't even going to do all this stuff. And then you take my parents away. 

Dawn Taylor

You're like, and now watch me pay you back. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, like I was. I had this book burning percolating for years since I was 20, 21 when I was coming out of Scientology. But I was like, I can't publish it because I don't want to lose my parents. I know they would take my parents from me. And this book is not an attack on Scientology, right? It's just about me growing up. You just add your reading, the reader knows what it's like, what a child needs to grow up. And you see that I don't have that, but I don't have to tell the reader that. So it's not an attack on Scientology. So I was but still yeah, I could not write this book because my parents didn't want to lose them. And then I lost them anyway, because my best friend was on this show and I knew about it, and I didn't write a report about it. And they were like, you are on her side, so we can no longer talk to you. Like, that's just where they jump to. 

Dawn Taylor

Just wild. Just like the deeper control, the better. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. And it's sad because so many of my cadet friends that I grew up with have lost their parents over the dumbest, silliest things like that. Like one of my friends wrote, wow, look at how many, how much Scientology pays ads for the Super Bowl. Interesting. And again, it's, like, totally like, does it really say like this is good or bad? You know, and like so many people, Scientologist friends like, underfunded. And we're like, I can't believe you wrote that about the Sea Org. And like, her parents stopped talking to her because her sister had said, I'm not a Scientologist anymore. Don't involve me in it anymore. And then because her sister did that, they also disconnected from her. And it's like the two separate people like, this is this family. Scientology is making family not important. They're saying the church, the church, they don't really believe in God, but they are saying that they are more important than your own family because you've lived so many lives. You've had so many families in the past. We're saving the world. What's more important, obviously Scientology. 

Dawn Taylor

So, from what? So Leah Remini came out about it. She had her whole show, and she's talked very loud about how, like, they have tried to run her off the road. 

Katherine Spallino

She was a cadet, too, by the way, in Florida. Yeah. You could keep going with what you're saying. 

Dawn Taylor

No, but she's like, they've done everything in their power. Like from like career, her finances. Like they have done everything in their power to destroy her. And it's almost like the more they try, the louder she gets. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. I don't know, it's amazing. Right? 

Dawn Taylor

Which is incredible. For 

someone watching from the outside. I remember the first time, you know, you heard about random things around, you know, Tom Cruise and his wedding and then, like, not talking to his daughter after and his ex-wives and not having access to his kids or him ignoring and walking away from his kids. And you hear all these things and you think, yeah, but it can't actually be that bad. It's just celebrities and it's just gossip and it's just, you know. Some random tabloid. 

What about that? I was going to say, like, is it actually that bad? 

Katherine Spallino

Celebrities are actually treated better than, like regular Scientologists. Scientologists are under so much control, they will write up their spouse if they feel like the spouse is saying something negative about Scientology, they will disconnect from their own children. Um, it's really hard for them to turn against a celebrity because celebrities give them a lot of PR, good PR, right? Good public relations. And the money and everything. So when Leah Remini in her book, which I've read is amazing, Troublemaker. She was at Tom Cruise's wedding and she had the audacity, apparently, to ask where David Miscavige’s wife, is. Shelly Miscavige, who is missing. But missing is mean. She's just, she's okay with it, but she's like, basically getting rehabbed, you know what I mean? Like, she's shunted off somewhere out in the mountains, probably in Hemet, California, and probably okay with it because she's so indoctrinated to thinking whatever she did, which was probably nothing, was wrong. And so she's just doing like menial labor for the rest of her life. Right? But, Leah Remini doesn't know all this. She's just like, where did Shelly Miscavige go? And she's like, where is she? And somebody in the church yelled at her for even having the audacity to ask her that at a celebrity wedding. And then they had her pay for counseling, hundreds of thousands of dollars to fix what she did, to fix her brain. Because, like, why would you think you could ask a question like that? And, um. eventually she was just like, this is baloney. Like, I'm paying all this money and you guys still aren't even answering my question. And she started going on the internet looking for information. Like I said, it's like you have to look for information if somebody is telling you not to look, definitely go look. Right. So it is so true. And like the whole thing with Tom Cruise, with his girlfriends, like David Miscavige is like, obsessed with him. Those two are like, obsessed with each other. They're both egomaniacs. So they like, feed off each other. And I think David Miscavige was like, you need to get a girlfriend. I'm going to get you a girlfriend. And so they're like calling in Scientologists, girls that are hot or attractive and interviewing them before Tom Cruise meets them to see if they qualify to be his girlfriend. So before Katie Holmes, there was all these other actresses, too. Scarlett Johansson got called into, and they're like seeing if they're like, malleable, you know, like, would you be open to Scientology if Tom Cruise wanted that? You know, and a lot of them said no. And Katie Holmes had a crush on Tom Cruise when she was young. And it was like in a Seventeen Magazine and everything. So she was, so easily probably manipulated. Not her fault, you know, because like, this is a man she had a crush on when she was young, and now she gets to date him, and now he wants to marry her and he's in love with her. Like, what, a fairy tale. And then all of a sudden, she realized what control Scientology had around everything and got out. I'm sure she had to sign a huge NDA, but I bet she could get around it if she wanted to and tell what, like, really happened. But I also understand she's got her daughter. She probably wants to live her life.

Dawn Taylor

But in that there's, it is very interesting. It's very interesting how so many cults take away, 

take away the family peace. 

Katherine Spallino

Mhm. Exactly. And they make you dependent on the church as a family basically. But the church is not a family and they will shun you at the moment you do anything that's wrong or at least Scientology will and get this, so like Scientology has tax exempt status. So they get billions of dollars coming in and they don't pay any taxes. Isn't that just ridiculous? 

Dawn Taylor

It's so insane

Katherine Spallino. 

Yeah. And we could use that money. You know, America has so many problems right now with schooling with, like, mental health. It's like that money could be going somewhere else to help people and help families that are poor and who need extra assistance. Instead, it's just going David Miscavige. 

Dawn Taylor

So everyone is. Well, I mean, everyone is very, very poor. Next to nothing taken care of. So how does the new money continually keep coming in just from new members, or do they have enough people working outside of the Sea Org that still continually are paying their money in?

Katherine Spallino 

Yeah. So they have something called the whales, the big whale donors who, there are some big rich people who are on Scientology. Sterling something who invented like software that's used everywhere. ABC Mouse, you know, that, like, preschool learning. I don't know if you know about it, that's from a Scientology family. So there are these national huge companies, survival insurance, all Scientology companies who donate massive amounts. Nancy Cartwright, obviously Tom Cruise. So you have huge, huge wealth there. So that's always coming in. And then but from there I would say, I don't know if they're getting new Scientologists like, think there's so much bad media, so much, you know, negative press out there. A lot of people say when they walk into what's called an Org. It's always empty. Like there's not a lot of people there. So I think it's just like slowly shrinking. But they have all this money from like, you know, the past 50 years that it's still able to survive. But, I think it's just slowly going to start downsizing. But I don't know. We'll have to see. I don't actually know what's in the bank account. 

Dawn Taylor

No, but it's, there is so much negative media on it. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

So for every Tom Cruise, for every person who's like rah rah rah rah, right..There's people like yourself that are walking away from it. There's people like Leah Remini, even like the Danny Masterson stuff that everyone thought he was going to get off. And obviously they couldn't buy the judge well enough. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. And there was evidence that Scientology literally told these women not to report this rape. And they covered it up for Danny Masterson because it's Danny Masterson. And they're like, and now guess what? Now that Danny Masterson has totally messed up their PR game, they've declared him a suppressive person. 

Dawn Taylor

Really?

Katherine Spallino

His brother, his sister who are all at trial, his wife, who are all Scientologists, can no longer talk to him. Like now. He's probably just like, I mean, like, this guy's a rapist, so I don't care how he feels. But at the same time, I'm like, God, like, this just shows your true color psychology. Like you were standing with him and then you just cut him off at the knees. Like, what? He's down. But it's also like, you should have done that at rape. Not because now it looks bad that you were supporting somebody who did this when there was actual factual women who had come in and said, Danny did this to me, and they said, what did you do to deserve it? Go clean his car, make up the damage for what you did because he deserves what he wants. One of them is his girlfriend. So of course that's allowed. Not true. Women and men do not get to be assaulted. All because they're in a relationship if they say no. And then the other two were drugged and taken, you know, so, that type of stuff is so prevalent. My best friend who was on the Remini show, her dad abused her and nothing was done to him to be reported to the police. And then, like very little attempts to help her to deal with that trauma. So she just had to carry with that with her growing up. Um, these are just like little drops. There's so many stories out there. And like I was saying on SPTV, there's like all of these stories. Leah Remini show The Aftermath. Like, I have my book, if you're interested more in like, young coming of age memoir. It's very young teenager growing up. So if that's your vibe, it's light. So, that's kind of nice for people to just kind of like it's funny, it's a little different. But I'm just saying there's so many mediums for people to learn about what Scientology is. The reason why I want people to learn about it is because I'm tired now. You know, like my parents are being held basically like hostage from me. And there's like, nothing I could do except for what I'm doing now. It's just telling more of my truth. And then hopefully, maybe they'll be like, you know, these old people. Maybe they do have choices, because right now the old people are not just like, put in a nice retirement home. They're like, put in a crappy apartment, shoved together, communal showers, having to do cleaning stations, you know, and not possibly not getting good medical care, most likely not getting good medical care. So I don't even, I don't want my parents’ days to just be wasting away in this apartment building and Los Angeles and the seedy area of Los Angeles. 

Dawn Taylor 

Which is so devastating and it's so hard that you can't, I mean, it's so hard to convince a senior citizen on a good day to change their opinion on something. Never mind when they've already been, when they've spent their entire lives being indoctrinated, to convince them that what they're doing is not okay or not right, or they need to walk away or whatever. What about your siblings? Are they still actively involved? 

Katherine Spallino

Luckily, my brother Jason is here in Minneapolis with me and we see each other occasionally. He tried to see my parents when he was just in Los Angeles, and he was literally told no, and he said he doesn't know where they are. So he just said, he went to the church. He's like, I want to see my parents. They're like, no, your sister's been declared a suppressive, me. And he's like, well, I'm not declared. I barely see my sister. And they're like, no, you can't see them. You have to do what's called conditions, which is like when you make up the damage for what you did because you left the Sea Org when he was 17 years old. So he's bad for doing that, supposedly. So he's like, oh, I did my conditions when I was 20. I never heard back. And they're like, he's like, so could I see them? I have to fly back to Minnesota tomorrow. And they're like, no. And you just didn't know what to do. So he just left. But it's like my brother is more chill than me. Think if I was there up and like, you're calling the cops, you know. Yeah. And I'm getting, I'm figuring things out. I'm like, trying to decide what my next steps are. Will file for elderly abuse. I need to make sure they're actually doing okay. Um, so I'm going to, those are all steps I'm trying to figure out. I'm hoping that if these people are in Scientology, they have what's called the organization. And they literally the people who sue you, who set private eyes to, like, go, like, go through your garbage or like harass you, follow you. I have luckily and have not gotten any harassment. I live in Minnesota, so it's further away from everything. But also there have been so many people coming out on YouTube speaking out that I feel like I've like kind of enveloped in like a little blanket of people, like there's so many of us now But I'm hoping they're watching this and not hearing me say elderly abuse. We're worried about our parents that they're going to start saying, let's let these old folks contact their children, because I'm not. Like I said, I'm not the only cadet who's lost their parents, who whose parents have disconnected from them and like starting to let that happen, even that's a small step of humanity which I would appreciate. Who knows? 

Dawn Taylor

What are the chances? And I mean, I know this sounds horrible, but what are the chances that would actually happen when this is an organization that thrives on keeping them away, and it would almost be like losing some control of something that they are so firmly in.

Katherine Spallino 

Yeah, the odds are slim. But yeah, I told you, I'm an optimist. 

Dawn Taylor

You totally are. 

Katherine Spallino

I'll try, I still try. I'm like, maybe they will. And I'm like, have these ideas of maybe what, maybe I'll try to go see them. I don't have an idea of where they are, but I don't really. But I'm like, I could do some sleuthing. I don't know, I'm like, figuring it out. Um, it's also hard because I'm still here. I have my three kids who are all elementary age. I have my husband. It's not like I could just go take off whenever I want. Um, I think that they're like, okay, health wise from having that phone call with them. But I know, like they’re in their mid 70s. Like how many more years do they have. Uh, so taking it day by day, you're right. Like the odds of them being like, you know what? We're going to let them contact all their suppressive children. Yeah. Like that doesn't sound like, it's not at all, especially in their eyes. We really are evil. Like, they think I'm a really, really bad person, and it's like, well. 

Dawn Taylor

And would your parents and I know this is, this is horrible. And maybe I shouldn't even say it, which is going to make me an outsider, but would your parents even be willing to talk to you because they're so convinced you're evil? 

Katherine Spallino

Well, they were before, but they didn't know about my book yet. And then I told them on the phone, now they've probably been told I'm talking on the internet about all these insane lies I'm sure they're saying, but they're not lies. I have so many of my friends who are also cadets who could corroborate everything I've said, who've read my book, who've said it's all true. Um, so now my parents probably are dealing with that loss like my mom. So I have to, I try to think in their brain. I'm like, there's that cognitive dissonance. I know they love me. And at the time when they stopped talking to me, they probably thought it was temporary. Like, that last time when my brother was sick. Um, and then, you know, well, they're doing drudgery. Days go by really fast. They go really slow, but also blink of an eye. All of a sudden, six years have gone by. I wonder if she always thought she would see me. And now I think she's probably like, I don't know. She's probably thinking she's not going to see me again or her other child, and she lost. So my brother who got sick, and did die. So it's like you would think that would make them. He died of a bone marrow transplant. 

Dawn Taylor

Was that Judson? Was that his name? 

Katherine Spallino

No. Lucas. His real name is Philip. I don't mind saying my family member names, but, um, so he ended up passing away. So, you would think that would only make us like hold, she would hold us dear to her heart. But no. And my sister, so she's in her mid 40s. So I also try to tell myself she's got to be advocating for love. She's got to be looking out for them. I know my sister, she's got a strong personality in a lot of ways, but she was always a rule follower, which is why she's still from the time I was. You could see it in the book where she's always, yeah, So she knows what's going on. But I'm like, to me, it's so hard for me to just be like, oh, that person's evil. Like this person that I know. Like, it's just unless there's, like, facts and things that they've done. Oh, I've written a book. How does that make me evil? 

Dawn Taylor

You know, but it checked the box, and they're rules of what makes you bad. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. And now, in their mind, it's okay that they no longer talk to me. 

Dawn Taylor

Knowing what you know now of the loss, the grief, the shunning. Right? Would you still make the same decision you originally did to leave Sea Org? 

Katherine Spallino

Absolutely. I'm, like, living so well and enjoying myself. When I was 17, living in LA, barely any money to put gas in the car to get to work. I was the happiest ever. I had my weekends, I had my nights, like to have nights and weekends to everybody seems like nothing, but I was used to it, my whole days being regimented from the time I was six years old. That to me, to be able to do whatever I want on the weekend, whatever I wanted in the evening felt like such freedom. And to know, oh, I can meet my husband somewhere out in this world. And like one day we could have babies. Like in the future, like it was, to me. Life was a blast. Even though I could not afford, like I had no health insurance, I  couldn't even pay for my car insurance. I would, like, get pulled over and then I'd have a court fight. Like I had all this, like hard stuff to deal with at 17, supporting myself. And I was, and I'm so happy. I'm still so happy. Like life is hard now as a mom of three, like raising three kids, oh my gosh, they have made me doubt myself 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, more than anything.

Katherine Spallino

And where I'm like, I thought I was going to be the most calm, patient mother ever. And here I am, unfortunately, screaming at them because they're not listening. I don't scream all the time, but it happens. And I hate when I do and I'm like, oh, and I know I'm only human. And I'm just like, I didn't expect this part, but I'm still, you know, even with those struggles of like, how do I raise my children through the different developmental stages? I have a therapist now who I could talk to about these things. And, okay, I'm encountering this type of behavior. What is this? How do I deal with that? You know, and I get help in that way. And my husband, who's my partner, we try to do fun stuff with our kids all the time. We take them to the zoo. We go to Michigan to watch a Michigan game because Ryan went to Michigan, like things like that. All of that always makes me grateful.

Dawn Taylor 

So I want to backtrack a second. You said you're not allowed to have kids if you're in Sea 

Org. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. So in 1985 they passed or like it was 1986. I was born in 1985, like a policy letter saying that basically children are a distraction and stop having them. So there is a high amount of abortions in the Sea Org because, you know, if you get pregnant, you would have to leave and they don't want you to leave. So, they convince you that it's better to stay. And remember, they've had babies, many lives, you know? Yeah. So they like these women have had abortions and there's actually think there's a lawsuit now where a woman had to abort her children, her two of her babies and now she's suing because she was like, I was under like duress to do that. And it's not something, obviously that you could take back, like, that's going to haunt you, especially if you don't, really didn't ever want to do it in the first place. Um, but I knew that. So at 15 I was like, but I really want to have kids. Like, by then I knew, you know, some people like, I mean, like some girls like, no. Yeah, I want to have children and some don't. And I was one of those who did know. And I'm glad I knew that, because that was also a very big reason of why was like, can't just leave at like 30 years old and go have a baby, like need to go create a life for myself, meet somebody, have a relationship and then have children. Um, but like my sister, I'm like, she's like in her mid-40s. I'm like, oh, that's like. I mean, she could probably still have a baby if she wanted, but I don't think she cares, like, to her, it's not important. You know, 

Dawn Taylor

She's following. She's saving the planet. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, exactly. 

Dawn Taylor

So that seems like such a funny rule to me. So what were their rules on relationships or marriage or any of those things? A funny because then you're constantly having to seek people outside of Scientology to bring them in and create built-in followers like you guys It just kind of created this natural order of like, no, no, no, we're in. This is just our life. 

Katherine Spallino

Well, there are Scientologists who can have babies. So only if you work in the Sea Org. Or can you not have babies if you're, like, living in the regular world and just go to Scientology church, like on nights and weekends, you could still have a baby. So all those people are still having babies. It's just if you work in the Sea Org, they don't want to have to provide the space and the money to raise a child, because they did it for about, like, one whole generation of kids. And it was hard and they didn't do a good job and they think they were like and it was distracting and they were like, no more, no more babies. Um, so but yeah, regardless, like because another thing that's happening is like, you know, parents are disconnecting from their adult children, like, who are Scientologists, like regular Scientologist families. So that is still happening. So then those people are definitely not sending their kids to the church too. So, all this disconnection they're doing is just creating more and more cracks in this organization of, there's like my best friend who was in my wedding, who disconnected me all because of the show, like we were using that book, actually. So she'd be my second book. And we'll talk about that whole story of how she turned on me and turn om me and my parents lose. I lost my parents, basically. Not because of her, but because of the church is pressure on her. And she reported me for knowing about, being on Leah Remini show. She has lost me and like many other of her cadet friends, and yet is still marching along like, I'm still a Scientologist. It's still the right thing to do blindly, you know, cause she won't look at any news. Like, if I would bring up something to her. Like when? Remember when Danny Masterson's thing came out? I'm like, hey, did you hear about Danny Masterson? She's like, well, I'm like, yeah, he was accused of rape. And she was like, no, I didn't know because they like, put on blinders. I'm like, how do you not know what's on headlines like they literally can like wipe their own brain and like, I'll have conversations about stuff in Scientology that I didn't like, like, oh, Ron Hubbard is super homophobic and he has writings about it. And then I'll be like, it's so crazy that our good friend is in this famous band, but she's a lesbian and Scientology supports her. I'm like, isn't that like, contradictory? She's like, why would it be contradictory? I'm like, because remember, like it says this about gay people. And she was like, no, I don't remember that. Like, whoa. Like, she just like erases parts that they tell her to erase to make it right in her brain.  That's how much like, because they do it themselves like they self-regulate themselves. Or like if they think a bad thought, they're like, I should go report that in session so I could get that fixed. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, that part of it blew my mind. Like the moment where your brother had done something and he told you in the hallway outside. Mr. Hammond, was that his name? His office? Just because he told you you got in trouble It made you an accessory. And it's like you were literally outside his office when he told you, like, how did that. The whole time. I'm like, this doesn't make sense as I'm reading it. Yeah. So one thought, one question is how do they determine, like how is it determined who's in the Sea Org and who's not? 

57:41

Katherine Spallino

So the people who went into the Sea Org from our school were just cadet children, like our parents were in the Sea Org, and that was our purpose. But like regular Scientology kids, there are a lot of them who are going to Scientology schools called Delphi Academy that don't call themselves Scientology schools. They're like non, what's the word? What? It's like no religion. It's supposed to be welcoming to anybody. 

Dawn Taylor

Non-denominational.

Katherine Spallino 

Yes. Um, but they use the study technology of our own Hubbard and they use other little things, little like pockets of Scientology in there, but they won't call it Scientology. So they used to be heavily recruited. So Sea Org members would go to the parking lot. And I worked at the school, and I would see them talking to these kids and wanted to be like, don't go. You're living your best life because you gotta learn this. They did have a small life. They had soccer team and they would have homework and they would get to hang out with their friends. And like, if they get recruited, that's like at 14 or 15, you're working it as an adult and there goes your childhood. And as we all know, there's so much developmental learning you have to do as a child. So they would get a lot of Scientology kids. And in my book, you'll encounter me encountering those Scientology kids and being like, well, what was it like to, like, have a life and like, have a house and like, what is that like, why would you be here? I want to say, why would you be here? But I'm not allowed to ask that question because it's like a negative question. Um, but I've heard recently that they now try not to recruit children, anyone under 18, which is big because before they had 12 year olds, 13 year olds working, not going to school, or they would try to jab them through the process so that they wouldn't have to go to school. And now I think that because of they realize they're liable for a lot of lawsuits that they've stopped. So yay! Another win, I guess. 

Dawn Taylor

So these are so much stuff, right? So when someone joins an everyday person. So say I decided I'm going to drive to downtown Edmonton, where I live and join Scientology, and I walk into the building. So I'm pretty sure there's a campus here, a church here, building, whatever you want to call it. I walk into the building and I say, hey, I'm here and want to join Scientology. At what point does that become now I'm just a member. Like I would be a member of any church. And what does that look like? Versus oh, now I'm actually going to apply for a job or I'm going to be recruited into Sea Org. Like how does what's How is, what is the difference and how was that figured out?

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. So when you're just doing services, when you pay money, you're public. So you'll be treated really well. They want you to come in nights and weekends. So your life kind of gets taken over by it and they're like, oh, you didn't get 40 hours of studying in this week. Like you need to make up that time. But you at the same time, 

Dawn Taylor

So huge expectations on how much time you put in. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, but you're going to join. If you walked in and said, I would like to be a Scientologist, they probably might doubt you because nowadays that doesn't happen a lot. Like, hey, what is this all about? I'm curious. They might show you around and offer you, like, a $20 course, like super cheap personal values and integrity, just about valuing yourself and being true to yourself. Great facts. Right? So you might do this course and it might even be a correspondence course. You could take it home and just mail it in. They did a lot of that, especially during the pandemic. And then after that you're going to go to a little bit higher level. Communication is fun, learning how to communicate. And then you're going to go to like student hat. And then all of a sudden it's like $100, $150. Meanwhile you're meeting all these other Scientologists who are doing this. I think they're really upbeat. They could talk really well. You could kind of tell that I'm easy, like it's easy for me to speak. That is a skill I did learn from Scientology. Like, they teach communication sometimes to a fault, where it's like, you've seen Tom Cruise's video where he's like, I am the 

Whatever, like there's a video of him if you look it up at a Scientology event and he's like, look so crazy. And I'm like, he's trying to be what's called tone 40, because that's a skill they teach you about, like being enthusiastic.

Dawn Taylor

Like jumping on the couch at Oprah and everywhere. 

Katherine Spallino

Yes, exactly. Yeah. That's why he was taught was, like, a good thing and the world was like, whoa, dude. Calm down. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, well that's scary. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're going to meet people who have this enthusiasm, who are infectious and fun, and they might even hook you up with a good job because they work for a good psychology company. And now you're, like, working in a company with all Scientologists. Everything's going great. You might start dating a Scientologist. Things are like kind of going your way. And then like, maybe you're like, oh, I don't really agree with Ellen Hubbard said about like, gay people being perverts. And they're like, somebody will, right? They're like, oh yeah, you'll have to, you'll see what it means, like if you keep reading. But meanwhile they might write you up and then you get called into the ethics officer and they might start like interrogating you about that and then get you to change your mind, or maybe make you realize like, oh, I shouldn't be looking at these outside sources because that's going to just create trouble for me. I should just only stay with what the church says. So that's like your beginning world and it slowly gets bigger. Like you get more and more drawn into that. Now let's say there's two members. Now, I hear that most orgs have Sea Org members at each org to the staff who are like, they work for the Scientology church, but they're not in the Sea Org, or they only dedicate like two years or a five year contract and then Sea Org members now too. They might be like, you are such a good Scientologist, like you're so good at it. Like, don't you want to like, help out more and you want to be part of the Org? So maybe you'll join staff and then maybe from there you might get recruited for the Sea Org. So, this is like from, like if you were just a normal person walking in, that could happen. Or you can remain a Scientologist because guess what? You start making more money or the company you're in sells and you actually get some money from that. And now you're like doing really well. But everything around you now is surrounded by Scientology. And if you do one thing wrong, you could lose it all in a blink. Or like you could lose your spouse because they did something wrong, like that. They have that much control. But you think you're happy. Like you tell yourself all the time, I'm very happy. Like this is the right thing. 

Dawn Taylor

Okay. No, I've always wondered about that process. Because you do like there's the people in this Sea Org. But then. And it is like it's hard to understand from the outside. And that made it so 

clear. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. And imagine like if you're kind of lost, if you're like just out of college, you can't find a job, your friends are kind of flaky. And then you find Scientology and these people are dedicated. They love you right away. You're welcomed right away. You have a social life, and they get you a job, like at a good company. I'm not saying that will always happen, but in LA especially, there's so many big companies in LA, a lot of celebrities are Scientologists, so you could get into an acting workshop with like famous like this, this guy who's like a Scientologist who does a lot of acting workshops and like, you know, like a lot of doors open for you too and think that's like that even for people who join other like, Christian groups, you know, like, oh, now I found my people. It's just how far are these groups going to try to control you? Some of them are really like controlling. It is a great social group or a great Christian youth group that helps you and kind of. 

Dawn Taylor

I've also like, but I've been to churches that are like, oh, this is really controlling. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, exactly. Unhealthy and controlling. Where they'll try to tell you what to do or who to hang out with or what to wear, like, oh, that's not really helping you anymore. But if you join a group, whether it's Christian or like a science group or whatever, and it's like, hey, we meet every Thursday and we talk about these things, let's see you next week. It's like super casual or like we talk about this is our faith and this is what we believe. What do you think about this? Let's debate it. Like let's have conversations. Those are all healthy ways that can be in a group of humans, like social contact. Oh, but when you're doing it in a way where it's like restrictive, then it's no longer healthy. And then when you're breaking up families and so on, creating problems, or people are using credit cards to pay for services because they feel that need because they have to keep being on service like that happens to it. Scientology. Um, so I hope that gives an idea of like somebody who's like, not born in it, what it could be like for them, why they would want to join it. I don't think people are really joining nowadays because of that bad press. But if they did, maybe they could do a lot of self-talk of staying in it because of that relationship. They could form right away with all these other Scientologists where it's like a group, a new group. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah, well. And I can see them like rebranding it. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, maybe they will. Or they'll be like, oh, no, it was only over there. 

Dawn Taylor

Right. Just to make it something different or we knew had no idea. We knew nothing about that.

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, I don't know if they'll do that, a rebrand that's interesting. I don't know, because everything that Ron Hubbard says is like, um, you cannot change it. So that's the thing. Like you can't really reprint it, although they change it all the time. They're reprinting books all the time and editing it, and they've taken out some of the homophobic comments, he said. So they do change it. So it's possible they could rebrand if they're already doing these little changes. Yeah, we'll see what they do. 

Dawn Taylor

It'll be interesting to watch. it'll be very interesting to watch to see where this all goes down. And also it's so sad. Right. It's just incredibly sad that people are being treated the way they are. And being so sucked into it. So, the money piece of it, right? Because you said there's like billions of dollars coming in. If you Google anything about even like the properties that they own and all of that end of it. So is it just through like the little courses that they are getting money constantly, or is it like a lot of cults where it's like, no, you literally like almost sign over your paycheck to us? 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. It's like other cults where they're like, you're not required to sign over your paycheck. But once you get past those little courses, if you wanted to get counseling, auditing, it's called auditing, not counseling where you sit. And they have like an E-meter, which is like a lie detector, but they wouldn't call it that. And they process like your trauma. And then they even go past life. They tell you you can go past life and all that stuff that costs a lot of money. If you wanted 12 hours, it's like five grand of that. So if you're doing a lot of those, that's a lot of money coming in. And then on top of it, they ask you to be an international association of Scientologist member, which is a fee. It's like $200 a year. But then on top of that, you could be a donor, high level donor and pay more money and you could get like a trophy, you know, like that big fundraising thing. So, they'll raise money. Oh, that's another thing. All these lands that are buying all these organizations, that is done by fundraising, the church doesn't even buy them. So, like, wealthy people are paying for those buildings. It's like a lot of money being funneled from rich families or rich Scientologists and then little bits of money, and then also they run up people's credit cards, too. There's a whole scam. You could look it up, the chase wave about Scientology, where they are literally taking out multiple lines of credit on people, and people didn't even know, like Scientologists themselves. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh my goodness. 

Katherine Spallino

Were you even aware that registrars were doing that? And they're like, no, we thought you really wanted to do this course. Like, because these registrars who are sending them up for courses are under all this pressure to have their stats up every week. You got to get your stats up and they have pressure - sell, sell, sell, sell. And then they start to do illegal things like that. 

Dawn Taylor

Yeah. To get their numbers.

Katherine Spallino 

Mhm. 

Dawn Taylor

So I was just doing some quick googling and this was quite a while ago just on a history.com. And it says that there's more than 11,000 churches. And at that point they were welcoming more than 4.4 million new people a year. But also quite a few different websites are saying that there's it's estimated that there's under 40,000 worldwide at this point. 

Katherine Spallino

Of Scientologists. So it's gotten less. Yeah, it's the numbers are definitely dropping. 

Dawn Taylor

So it sounds like it's dropping quite rapidly. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah, yeah. So I'm like. Yeah. I wonder. I don't know what's going to happen. Like you, my eyes are trained on it. I'm like, what's going to happen here? Like, I also want to know, like what's going to happen to my former best friend. Like when is she going to wake up or will she ever like, I just I'm like, this is going to be interesting these next ten years or so. Because Lina’s lawsuit, she filed a lawsuit about all that, the defamation, everything that's been happening with her. Yeah, she just did it, which is amazing. If she has so much evidence of the attack that Scientology againt character. If that could get passed or, like, she wins that lawsuit and she gets paid, how many other people could let it sue the church like it opens up the door. And that's like money bleeding wide open. And another, there's a trafficking one for work trafficking where 16 year olds were working on what they have a big cruise ship and we're like, working there. They wanted to leave and they could leave. That's another lawsuit. There's another lawsuit for a woman who was coerced with getting married. It felt like she was abused. Like there's like all these lawsuits started to come into fruition now with Danny Masterson's actually the evidence of the church being involved in covering up his rape like it's going to. That's a fact now in law, you know, like where they could refer to it. Lawyers. 

Dawn Taylor

I was going to say that is a big deal. 

Katherine Spallino

Yeah. So that's like all of these things are really good things. I was scared to speak out because I literally at the time, I, there wasn't that many people speaking out. And there was like maybe ten Scientology books. But right when I started speaking out all of these people randomly, it must have been like this random brain epiphany started speaking out on SPTV and having YouTube channels and telling their stories. And I'm like, wow. Like it's amazing. Like, it's so cool that all of these people are all adding our voices. Because you can't, like everybody can't be a liar. Eventually the church has to look inward. But the thing is, they have a despot at the top who won't listen. So, it's not a democracy in this church. So, if one guy refuses to change, that whole church is going to stay the same. So, like somehow David Miscavige either has to be kicked out, but how would that ever happen? Well, none of the people around him can even have any thoughts that they have. They're bad. They get like what's called sec check which is like a form of like, confessionals. I'm like indoctrinated. And then they even get thrown into, like, what's called the Hole. I don't know if they still do that because it's been all over the internet. It's like a tiny, crappy trailer and they're sleeping on the ground. These are the executives of Scientology being treated like that. How are they ever going to tell David Miscavige, hey, we need to make a change. Like we can't cause all these families to be pulled apart. We can't keep asking for so much money from people. We can't keep suing all these people like. So that's the part where I'm like, how? How will it happen? I don't know, but David Miscavige is like, people are trying to serve him lawsuits. And he's like trying to avoid lawsuits. If he ends up in jail somehow, that would be a big deal. You know?

Dawn Taylor

But then you have situations and maybe because of my, my weird-like passion or cults, but then you have situations like Branch of the Davidians in Texas, where they've rebuilt the compound and they're still active. 

Katherine Spallino

Oh my gosh. Didn't know that they did. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh, yeah. And actually saw it like these signs they've rebuilt. Like there's still people there. Like it's still active. 

Katherine Spallino

And I'm sure they'll still be Scientologists or like practicing Scientology 

Dawn Taylor

Right. Like Warren Jeffs is in jail. And like, there's still like, I went to Utah, I saw the compounds and they're still all totally serving him. And. And. Yeah. And mind-blowing to me where I'm like what? 

Katherine Spallino

Like yeah, I think that it would just help break it down even smaller and further. But yeah, you're still going to have splinter groups who believe in Scientology. But a big part that could happen is if we lose that like tax exempt status, that's a big deal. That's a lot of money that they now have to pay towards back into the United States. And then also like not having less, if they have less control on these people, then we start to have more families getting back together and stuff. So it's just like baby steps. Even if, like, these small groups are practicing Scientology generally, like on its own, it's not that harmful. It's just teaching them these ideas and doctrines and stuff. It's when you're like, trying to create these rifts between families because you're not supposed to be declaring everyone a suppressive person, like they're taking some of these policies that don't have a role and just taking it to the extreme, like if you mellowed it out and you wanted to believe in aliens, fine. Like, believe what you want to believe, just don't have that harm. The harmful factor, right? Like, I don't care what people want to believe, as long as you're not harming people or making them have to believe a certain way or trying to control their thoughts, other people's thoughts, you know?

Dawn Taylor

Do you think it'll ever come out what is actually taught at those high 

levels? 

Katherine Spallino

It is out. You got to go on the internet. Okay, I'll got to look. Let's see all the levels. It's wild. It's really interesting, really like insane stuff. I'm like, oh God, I'm so glad I didn't do any Scientology processing. So I didn't get any of that. So yay for me. Yeah. 

Dawn Taylor

Oh my goodness Catherine, thank you, thank you, thank you so much. I know we went way over our time for listeners. I mean, either you've already checked out because we went way longer than an hour or also you're going holy- can we ask more questions? Check the show notes in there. We're going to have the link to Catherine's book we're going to have. We'll get some links to, like, some of these YouTube channels, some of these places that she talked about, some of the documentaries, things like that. So you guys can go do your own research and you guys can watch and listen and read and, and know more about what's going on. But also it's not just Scientology. We're in your life. Are you stuck in something toxic? We're in your life for you. Too afraid to step out? Where in your life have you lost all control over your own thoughts, your own ideas, your own everything? Because let's be honest, all of us have been indoctrinated from birth. With beliefs about ourselves, with ideas about ourselves, with ideas and how life or family or things should go down. And it's not actually that different.  You just haven't made billion dollar contracts. Yeah. Right. Right. So please, please, please check the show notes located at the TheTaylorWay.ca to make sure that you have access to all of that. But also if you're curious to dig into more, to see more, to know all of those things. Katherine, thank you so much for being here today and being so open to talk about this.

Katherine Spallino 

Yeah, absolutely. And if anybody wants to know more or talk to me or chat with me, I'm on Instagram at @thebadcadet and they could shoot me a DM. I do talk with people and I'm happy to answer questions. 

Dawn Taylor

Amazing. So again, we're going to have all of this contact information in the show notes, so please go check them out. If you know anyone who might be curious about this or might be in a situation like this, please forward this podcast to them so that they can have a little bit of information on it, and join us again in two weeks for another super cool topic and tell your friends. The more people that are learning, the less judgment. The more curiosity in this world, the better. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And subscribe now on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. See you guys later.